Host
- Jag Dhaliwal
Guests
- James Yianni, Head of Finance at charities Medical Detection Dogs and Farms for City Children
- Evie Dolega-Ossowski, Senior Auditor at the Government Internal Audit Agency
Transcript
Jag Dhaliwal: Hello and welcome to ICAEW Student Insights. My name is Jag Dhaliwal, and today we're discussing what it's like to work in charities and the public sector. Career paths for accountants are often described as practice versus industry. But that's not the whole story. If you're looking for a finance role with impact, it's worth considering working for a non-profit. Whether it's a charity or the civil service, there might be something that interests you. To learn more, I'm joined by James Yianni, Head of Finance at two charities, Medical Detection Dogs and Farms for City Children, and Evie Dolega-Ossowski, Senior Auditor at the Government Internal Audit Agency. Thank you both for coming in today.
Guests: Thank you. Happy to be here.
JD: So tell me about your career so far.
James, I'll start with you. How did you get into accountancy?
James Yianni: Sure. So I did a finance and accounting degree at university. And then I joined one of the big four firms, on one of their graduate schemes. I worked there for about eight years. I progressed up to a manager level during that time. But during the, sort of, latter phase of my time working in audit, I started a role as a trustee of a charity local to where I live.
And that made me think, you know, I was really enjoying that work. So I started to look for a role in the charity sector directly. I worked in a couple of roles and then now I'm Head of Finance, as you said before, for a couple of brilliant charities.
JD: Amazing. So lots of good stuff to get through in this episode then.
Thank you. And Evie, yourself? When is it in your career that you started looking at roles outside of the firm?
Evie Dolega-Ossowski: After I had completed my ACA, over the five years in external audit, I'd then taken the opportunity to do a secondment within the same firm into forensics. After I’d completed my secondment in forensics, I moved into the Economic Crime Advisory Team, which I really, really enjoyed, and I almost wanted to put together all of the skills that I'd learned.
So from my five years in audit, then into forensics, into economic crime and internal audit felt like the right fit for that as it captured a bit of everything. Started looking externally because I felt that I had exhausted all the opportunities in my current firm. I'd been there for six and a half years, wanted to try something new because how do you know what you like until you try something else?
And then found my first internal audit role in a retailer, which I learned so much from, but still was questioning perhaps did it align with the sort of work that I really felt was valuable? That's when I started looking again and landed my internal audit role with the civil service.
JD: Wow. So, a real breadth of experience there.
So if we just take it a little bit back. So, you've kind of touched on it, but how did you then really make the decision to leave? Is it that you, kind of, tried that forensics secondment and decided you wanted more?
ED-O: So, through the ACA, you explore lots of different types of skills and knowledge. And I do some of that in external audit.
Then tried a, sort of, different role in forensics to use some different kinds of knowledge that I'd gained over time. So, things like data analytics. Then I wanted to go back to do more audit work because I felt that I'd spent so much time learning about it and didn't want to lose the knowledge that I'd gained.
However, I felt that maybe financial audit wasn't necessarily what I wanted to do. And also was looking to try something different because how do you know what you like until you've tried something different? So, then went into more of an advisory role which had some internal audit work within it, but was more economic crime based.
And again, I felt that maybe I could do something a bit broader, which is why I wanted to go into a more general internal audit role. And then that was when I started to look externally, was because I felt I'd exhausted all the opportunities within the firm that I was in. Time to try something new and felt that if it didn't work out, I could always go back.
JD: So you were just trying to really try as much as you could in that period you were at the firm?
ED-O: Exactly. Yeah. I felt that the firm offered so many different opportunities there, and that's the benefit of being in quite a big firm. Lots of different clients. So, over the time I'd worked with, like I said, the consumer market sector, but also financial services, charities, public sector.
So yeah, I’d, sort of, felt that I'd had a lot of experience within that firm, and then it was just, yeah, time to try something new.
JD: And James, what about yourself then? Because I know you were in audit for eight years, so maybe, perhaps didn't try as much within the firm as Evie. But what really made you leave?
JY: So, whilst I was working as an auditor, I worked in the commercial part of the organisation for a while but then I moved into the not-for-profit part. Really enjoyed working with various not-for-profit organisations as clients. And that gave me great exposure to, actually, different sizes of charities in particular, but also an insight into how the NHS works and things like that. And that's really what gave me the flavour to, kind of like, go and look for that sort of work outside of audit.
JD: So, you've really, I guess you found a passion for industry.
JY: I think so, yeah. I was encouraged by somebody else to seek out a trustee role. They’re voluntary roles and the organisation I was working for was happy to, you know, give me the time to be able to do that around my audit work.
And that was a really, yeah, that was a really, like, empowering thing, actually. I was still quite young at the time and joined this trustee board where everyone was much older than me, but really actually respected what I was saying because of the skills that I'd learned during the qualification and during my time in audit as well.
So, yeah, I think it was really that that made me think, oh, I could do this as my day job as well.
JD: No, that's really great to hear. So was there then a transition period once you left audit and went into your new role? What was that like?
JY: Yeah, there was. So I was looking for probably six months to a year to move out of audit.
And I applied for quite a lot of roles that I thought that I would be suitable for. But the roles I was applying for, I was competing against people who had industry experience, and lots of them had charity experience as well. So, I think I was seen as a bit more of a risk perhaps by the, kind of, hiring organisation.
But yeah, once I'd, kind of, got through that and found a job with a great organisation, as their financial controller, that was me away. And I found it much easier to get the second job out of industry as opposed to the first job.
JD: No, that's really great to hear and really encouraging for our listeners as well. And Evie, for yourself then, did you also find that there was a bit of a transition period? I know you made the move a bit earlier than James.
ED-O: So, initially moving from the firm that I'd been at for six and a half years into a role in industry, there was a transition period more due to the fact that I was taking on a role that I'd never done before.
So, there was a lot of new ways of working and also working within an organisation, the relationship that you have with, almost, your client, being that you're part of the organisation too, creates a different kind of relationship with the people that you're working with, which I actually really liked because you felt like you were part of the value that you were bringing, and you could really see a tangible difference in the work you were doing, rather than a more distance client relationship.
Once I'd done that role for one and a half years, I then moved into public sector, and although the role was the same role, so still internal audit, it was a new methodology, different objectives. It was a much bigger organisation that I didn't know a lot about how they worked and the way it was set up.
So, there was loads to learn. But I have had such a great experience because there was a really thorough training programme. My managers have been really supportive and spent a lot of time with me to help me understand how they work and how the civil service works more generally. So, I didn't struggle as much moving between those two roles just because I had such a good support network going into the role that I'm currently in.
JD: And so, the initial move. Were there any kind of skills that you feel you already had, say, through the ACA or through external audit, that you could just transfer to internal audit?
ED-O: Definitely. I think that when you're moving roles into any role, there's always skills that you've learned, that you can bring with you, even if they're not specific to the role that you're going into.
There's so much that is transferable. So, external audit, you're auditing. It's a similar relationship where you're, sort of, planning, then executing fieldwork, then reporting. So, although your outputs may look slightly different, actually, the way you're working is similar. With external audit, as well, you're also moving around, working with different organisations and clients and different people within different audit teams.
So, again, that communication relationship building is very useful. And going into an even bigger organisation that I'm in now, with the civil service being so huge and our client base being massive and working on all different kinds of audits with different scopes and different teams, those skills I've had to develop even more, use more, because you are really trying to almost sell what you're doing to the client, or in this case, it'll still be the client but, sort of, working alongside them, to all achieve that, sort of, end goal together, which is really important.
JD: And James, does any of that resonate with you?
JY: I think adjusting the way that you communicate with colleagues around your organisation is a really important thing. Instead of giving, kind of, complex finance jargon, saying things like, we are spending more than we are bringing in or we need to raise more money, these things are really impactful.
It really helps people who are not trained financially to, kind of, get the message across. And you can understand the detail in the background if they need it. But, you know, those messages that you're getting across to other people in the organisation, they're really important.
JD: And are there any challenges that are unique to charities and the public sector?
JY: I think one of the most unique challenges is the fact that the income for an organisation that is set up to be a not-for-profit is much more unpredictable than a commercial business. You know, organisations, kind of, go through the year, kind of, almost working really hard to generate income that's generally from gifts from people.
And you could get to the end of the financial year and then, you know, a really big gift comes in, which is obviously fantastic news, but actually, all the planning you've been doing financially to, kind of, try and manage that cost base and manage how the organisation is functioning, it could become irrelevant very quickly. Whereas I guess in a, kind of, more commercial business, that's less likely to happen.
JD: Yeah, I can imagine much less likely.
ED-O: I find the exact same thing where you're not expecting change to come in, and then it does. And everything you've been planning on working on, suddenly there's huge reform and everything's moving around and people's responsibility shift and priorities change. So, you have to be really agile. Just, sort of, taking it as it comes and not getting too bogged down in what you'd planned versus what is actually going to happen.
And it's almost part of the challenge and part of the fun of it and makes it interesting every day.
JD: Yes. What are the key lessons then that you have learnt?
ED-O: So, as I was saying, having to be agile because things were always changing. So, although I was interested in politics anyway, and I was keeping up with the news, now that tends to come in very handy because it actually does have an impact on the work that I'm then delivering.
And having that access or being involved in the government, you can really see how it then impacts people. And you're involved in that and almost can see how it flows through society, the work that you're doing, and impacts society as a result.
JD: So, it's as if you're, kind of, doing the work in real time.
ED-O: Exactly.
That's exactly how it feels. You'll see something maybe come out in the news or come out at work or, you know, vice versa. And then that will then maybe change what you were planning on doing the next day.
JD: Yeah, I completely get that. So, I did some public sector audits and it was during Covid. So, I can completely see how that really makes you just feel as though the work you're doing is connected to the bigger picture.
ED-O: Yeah.
JD: And then how transferable then do you think the ACA is to then the sectors that you're now working in?
JY: Very transferable. Yeah. Lots of the skills that I learned when I was going through the ACA qualification are at the very centre of what I try and do every single day. You know, that kind of analytical mindset, being informed about how things are going both in your organisation and outside, as Evie was saying. And also just, kind of, challenging assumptions and putting your point across in a way that's useful for the business, not just for a finance team.
JD: So technical and soft skills.
JY: Absolutely. Yeah.
ED-O: Yeah, I completely agree. I've been able to work in so many different sectors, doing different types of roles because of the ACA. It gives you that foot in the door where perhaps you wouldn't if you didn't have a professional qualification. And then the skills that I've learned through the work that I've done. So, things like audit have so many different elements of it that are adaptable to lots of different roles.
And actually, that's one of the best things I've found about working in the civil service is there's so many opportunities and you don't necessarily need to be an accountant to do those types of roles, but the skills that you have gained through the work that we've been doing, you can use those to apply to lots of different opportunities, which is really exciting.
JD: So, that leads me on really nicely, actually, because you're then both actually trustees at non-profits. So, is that something that you would recommend to our listeners?
ED-O: Yeah, definitely. One of the best things that I've done, to be honest, to date, because I took on the trustee role when I was still working in the private sector, but I always felt that I'd gained all these skills over all of the years I've been working, and I wanted to really use them to benefit other people rather than just, you know, delivering for a profit.
So, taking on the trustee role has given me, first of all, a great safe space to almost try out governance skills, leadership skills, that perhaps I would have been too nervous to do in my work environment. Working with a group of people that are all there to deliver something that isn't about money, it's about the community, is something that aligns with my values.
And it was nice for me to be able to do that side of work when I was in the private sector. It almost compliments it now, that I work in the public sector, as well as do the trustee role. Although my role at work is slightly different to the sector that I trustee in, which is education, it allows me to see how the government can impact on a smaller scale.
And I'm involved in that. And then executing the change that comes from the government.
JD: And James, is there anything that you feel resonates in terms of the skills that Evie mentioned or just would you recommend joining as a trustee somewhere?
JY: Absolutely. I would recommend to everyone listening to this, or watching this, to seek out a trustee role.
The way I did it was I looked up the three charities that were closest to my front door, and I wrote to all of them and said, I'm really interested in becoming a trustee. And all of them came back to me and said that they wanted to speak to me, which was great. It was a real confidence boost.
But they recognised, I think, the ACA qualification, the skills that I could bring to their organisation. And it was such an empowering thing, being able to, kind of like, use those skills for an organisation doing such good work. And it was a real, kind of, confidence boost for me as well. I'm sure it helped me make that step between audit and industry as well.
JD: No, that's really great that they all got back to you. So, that's really encouraging. And were there any skills that you feel the trustee role really developed for you?
JY: Yeah. When you're on a board of trustees where all of the skills are diverse, they're all there to help the charity in a slightly different way, you might be one of the only people there who's got finance knowledge or expertise.
And so, when those kind of issues come up, they're going to lean on you for your advice, for your thoughts. And giving your opinion in those situations is interesting. You know, people listen to what you've got to say and it gives them context to help with their decisions as well.
ED-O: I also found that although, yes, I came from a finance background, I was encouraged to join committees that weren't finance related.
So, I joined the HR committee. And if you're looking for your future role to perhaps be a bit more diverse. So, for example, a CEO role would look at all parts of a business. So, getting exposure to different areas of an organisation can be really helpful. And again, it's in that safe space where you're not being paid for that role.
So, you're not expected to come in necessarily with a lot of experience in that area. However, the skills you've got from finance, for example, do come in handy and you can apply a similar mindset, like challenge and governance oversight, leadership, scepticism. So, those will still come in handy, even though maybe the area that you're supporting with isn't something that you're that familiar with.
JD: It sounds as though the trustee role is definitely vital to the business and very helpful. And it comes then with that experience that you've mentioned, having that finance background. Is there a certain amount of years that you have to be experienced for to then apply? So, some of our listeners are, of course, students at the moment. So, did you feel that you had to, kind of, reach a certain level in your firm to then apply?
JY: You've got to do what's right for you.
Yeah. I took on my trustee role when I was 25 or 26. So I was pretty young. I’d just finished my ACA qualification. The piece of advice that I was given when I finished my ACA qualification was fill the time that you used to use studying with something else.
ED-O: That’s a really good tip.
JY: And that's what I tried to do when I took on the trustee role. So, instead of using that time to study, I was using it to go and be a trustee at another organisation. So yeah, I think you've, kind of, got to do what's right for your stage of life, but I don't think you need to worry about being too inexperienced or too young.
You can add something. You know, everyone's got opinions, thoughts and skills that they can use to benefit these great organisations.
ED-O: And I definitely feel that although you might get that imposter syndrome feeling where why am I in a room with all these people that have tens of years more experience than I do? I've not found that to be an issue.
And like James said, they still appreciate your opinions and will ask for your feedback. And almost coming in with perhaps even fresher knowledge of the industry that you're in, you're maybe more up to date with other areas that others aren't, makes you just as valuable as everybody else. Having great ideas doesn't align with a certain age.
So, as long as you're passionate and looking to all work towards that same end result, I don't see why the years of experience have anything to do with the value that you can bring.
JD: No, that's really encouraging and great to hear. So, thank you both for sharing your experiences on that. And then, are there then any misconceptions about public sector or charities that you feel we should touch on today?
ED-O: I was worried about going into public sector as I'd always worked in the private sector. I'd had experience working with public sector but never worked in a public sector setting. I was worried that there maybe wouldn't be the opportunities for progression. Maybe the pay wouldn't be as good. But I've not found that, again, to be the case at all. In fact, the opportunities are much more diverse than I was expecting and look amazing.
There's opportunities to travel, work abroad, work in different organisations within the government, doing different kinds of projects. So, it's very diverse. There's always the opportunity to progress and people are very encouraging of you taking on new roles. There's not the negativity around wanting to apply for something different or maybe moving out of the role that you're in.
They only see it as a positive that you've accumulated maybe some skills in the role that you are in, and then you're going to take those somewhere else and benefit just as much in a different position. Equally, it's very flexible. The benefits are equal to what I had in the private sector, if not better. So, I can only speak highly of it.
JD: And James?
JY: I think that was really well put. I think, you know, if you want to work in a different sector, do it. It's great. It's a really great experience.
JD: Okay. So I'm going to ask you a question, but I think I already know the answer anyway. But do you think through your roles now that you've, kind of, found that sense of purpose that you were, kind of, seeking from your career?
JY: Absolutely. Yeah. It's a really difficult thing to find, right? Like, when you're at the beginning of your career, there's so many things that you're thinking about. You're trying to pass your exams, you're trying to do well at work, maybe you're even trying to settle in the area you live and all that sort of stuff.
So, yeah, it takes time. But finding an organisation that you really care about and, for me, an organisation that's doing such great work, yeah, I can’t tell you, it's so empowering. It's really great.
JD: No, I'm really glad to hear. And Evie?
ED-O: 100%. Even coming into accountancy. It wasn't that I'd left school and knew that that was what I wanted to do.
I went with it and, sort of, thought, well, I don't have any student debt as a result of this, so I'll just keep going as long as I'm enjoying it. But always, sort of, questioned where am I going to end up and what do I really want to do? So, I've now found the place that aligns with my personal values.
I went on a journey, worked in lots of different places, doing lots of different roles, with lots of different people. And I feel like I finally found the place I was supposed to end up in. So, I'm very happy and planning on sticking around for a while.
JD: So, would you then encourage people to just keep moving, keep looking until they try to find what it is for them?
ED-O: Yes, with the caveat of don't give up on something too quickly. Give it a chance. Because going into a new organisation or a new role, you may not see the full side of it until you've worked with it for a period of time. And equally, there will always be something you can take away from that role. So, even if the role isn't necessarily for you, you’ve still learned something from it that you can take and it will land you into the next one and the next one and the next one.
So, they'll only ever have been a benefit to you working in an area that perhaps then doesn't end up being for you.
JD: Yeah, you can get experience, right? Finally, James, what advice would you give to students who are thinking about perhaps in the future working at charities?
JY: I would say two pieces of advice. One, definitely do it.
Second one, look out for your nearest charity to where you live and go and ask them if you can help. They will really likely want your opinions and your insights. So yeah, go and do it.
JD: So, just be proactive?
JY: Absolutely.
JD: And Evie? The public sector?
ED-O: I would say don't be put off by worrying that by moving out of private sector into public sector, that you're going to be pigeonholed and that perhaps you wouldn't be able to do the sort of work that you want to do, because those opportunities are there.
And I've not felt that moving from private into public sector has held me back in any way. If anything, I've learned the most over the last six months than maybe I had over the last couple of years.
JD: Thanks for sharing that. It sounds like there's lots that our students can start doing. If you're interested in a career in charities or the public sector, consider becoming a trustee of a non-profit to start building your skills and experience ahead of making the move.
Before we finish up, I want to say thank you both for coming in today. Thanks for your time, James, Evie.
ED-O and JY: Thank you.
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