Host
- Philippa Lamb
Guests
- Riaz Shah, Professor of Practice, Hult International Business School
- Paul Guess, Case Management Officer, CABA
Producer
- Natalie Chisholm
Transcript
Philippa Lamb 00:06
Hello, and welcome to accountancy insights. Today we're talking about uncertainty. We're all working with it, so how can accountants best contend with it, professionally and personally? We're going to hear first from Riaz Shah OBE. He's a former partner at EY and Professor of Practice at Hult International Business School, he'll be giving us his assessment of the key areas of uncertainty facing accountants right now in terms of both their day-to-day work and their longer term careers. And with us to look at the emotional costs of uncertainty, we have Paul guess, Case Management Officer for the accountant support charity, CABA, what sort of mental health toll is uncertainty taking, in all its forms, macroeconomic, job related and personal, on accountants right now, and how can CABA help?
Philippa Lamb 00:55
Riaz, welcome.
Riaz Shah 00:56
Hi, great to be here.
Philippa Lamb 00:57
Shall we start with uncertainty in terms of accountants day to day, because I am guessing that clients expectations are evolving fast right now.
Riaz Shah 01:05
Yeah, I don't think clients just want compliance anymore. And we in accounting, we've been talking about this shift – how we've got to move to being trusted business advisors – for a long, long time now. But I think that time is absolutely now. We have to make this shift. Clients are facing huge demands, and that is creating a lot of uncertainty for them, and they're looking for people to give them a little bit of certainty through this, and we're the people who could do that.
Philippa Lamb 01:28
That's the point here, isn't it? They're facing uncertainty. Accountants are there to help them with it. They want more with less, though, don't they?
Riaz Shah 01:35
They do, and perhaps they should get it. You know, if we've got AI coming along, why can't we use that to make us more productive and spend our time with clients, really helping them on their business issues, really helping them with things like cybersecurity, or scenario planning, or workforce planning. Those sorts of things that we were very capable of doing.
Philippa Lamb 01:55
I want to talk more about AI, but first, actually, I did want to press you on the expectations point, because certainly in terms of time pressure, I think that really does contribute to accountants difficulties, doesn't it, the ever quicker response time expected by clients?
Riaz Shah 02:08
Yeah, and that's true for all of us. I mean, we're all under this sort of 24/7 working far from making our lives easier, in some respects, technology has made our lives more difficult, and hence the increase in mental health issues that you're going to be talking about later. That's partly because we're always, always on. Our clients are expecting that, and our clients do expect us to serve them really economically. But I think we can be doing ourselves a disservice here, because if we focus on things that are commodity type services, compliance work, and that's all we focus on. Then, of course, clients are going to demand lower fees. But if we start focusing on being their business advisor, being there for them, you know, being a CEO is a lonely job. If we can be there for them as the external trusted advisor, then they don't really think about our fees. They think about our value.
Philippa Lamb 03:04
Just looping back to what you were saying about tech and AI being part of the answer for accountants in terms of delivering for clients. Do you want to talk a bit more about that?
Riaz Shah 03:11
Well, I think certainly from a professional point of view, AI gives us the opportunity to make the entire industry much more exciting for people, much more attractive for people. When I was an audit junior, I did accounts, data, circularisations, what – 12 times or so? And how many times did I really need to do that to get it? Probably three. And everybody says across the profession that we take really bright students and we dumb them down over three years. So I think AI gives us, and technology generally gives us, this opportunity to change the model entirely. To reinvent accounting, really, to help us get smart graduates, more school leavers, and train them much quicker, having them do much higher level work much quicker, which they're fully capable of. Not dumb them down, and that makes the industry much more attractive to them, because they're talking to clients at a higher level right from day one.
Philippa Lamb 04:08
It's interesting how ideas and thinking are evolving around AI. Because initially, I think, for a long time, it's been talked about as a threat, a direct threat, to accountancy, audit, you know, the jobs at the front end of the profession will disappear. Lots and lots and lots of chat about that, Jeremy Hunt talking about the end of accountancy. Rather more encouraging, Kemi Badenoch, not disagreeing and saying, I think your line: there's always going to be room for expert analysis and advice.
Riaz Shah 04:32
Absolutely, but I think he's right, in a way. What he's saying is that the accountancy profession isn't going to be attractive anymore, or it's going to get…lots of stuff are going to get replaced. That's true if we imagine the accountancy practice as it is today. That's why we've got to reinvent accounting. We've got to reinvent the profession, really. And by the way, he was telling people to go into IT. I mean, that's the worst thing you can go into right now, because. IT, and coders, are being replaced much quicker than accountants right now by AI.
Philippa Lamb 05:04
Yeah. I mean, I think it is fair to say, I mean, graduate intake; that is falling, isn't it?
Riaz Shah 05:09
I think there's a reason for that, though, you know. KPMG's graduate intake this year is down 29%. Why did they do that? They also shifted and increased the number of school leavers they're taking on. Why are these firms massively increasing the number of school leavers they're taking on? It's because, I think they don't trust that the universities are producing people with the skills that they need. They trust their own L&D more than they trust the universities. You know, I spend a lot of time in education. I run four schools in London. I am really trying to, in my schools, change what we teach, so that we're not a school that teaches stuff that's relevant for the industrial revolution, but for the 21st Century. And you know, I find that we have to – I think all of us have to – work with our educators and drag them kicking and screaming into the modern age.
Philippa Lamb 05:17
It's interesting. You say that because I know Hult business school, we have roles now that are all about learning by doing. That's the philosophy there. So what might that mean in terms of training young accountants?
Riaz Shah 05:57
You mean in universities or on the job?
Philippa Lamb 05:57
On the job, yeah.
Riaz Shah 05:57
I think on the job, experiences become much more important. You know again, if I remember when I was a junior, I remember those times when a partner asked me to join him in a cab on the way to the client and talk to me about what he was going to try and do. And then afterwards, how do you think that meeting went? Those were the things I remembered the most, rather than doing my debtor circularisation for the 12th time. So I think learning by experience is very important. The other thing that I think is important is we have to shift how we give knowledge to our people in a very different way, and I think the universities and schools have to do the same. This is moving from what to think to how to think. So rather than teaching people, here's a bunch of knowledge. My job is to transfer the knowledge in my head over to your head in this one hour, by talking at you, and you taking notes. Much better for us to do that in advance with some learning on demand, whenever you can do that, and while we're in the classroom, for us to spend time saying: what happens when this goes wrong? Let's talk about some case studies where things go wrong, and let's discuss those things instead. And that builds judgment, and it kind of accelerates the experience that you would normally have built over three years. That accelerates that. It builds judgment earlier.
Philippa Lamb 07:28
Tech can play into some of the learning that used to be about sheer repetition for young accountants can't it? So scenario planning, scenario exercises leveraged by tech, rather than actually just doing the same thing again in a physical sense.
Riaz Shah 07:44
One of the things we found in my old firm is that people were frightened of giving others feedback because they thought they might be giving them negative feedback, which is quite a scary thing. We developed an app where an avatar was the person that you were giving the feedback to, and would react to you based on what you said, and then it would tell you another way of maybe having that conversation.
Philippa Lamb 08:07
That worked well?
Riaz Shah 08:08
Yeah, it was very cute, and it did work well. And I think it builds those and you can apply that to all sorts of things. Fee negotiations, for example.
Philippa Lamb 08:14
Taking some of the stress out of actually trying to do it real time.
Riaz Shah 08:17
Yes, yes, or learning in a book or a classroom.
Philippa Lamb 08:20
So obviously we have the new ACA now, and it's specifically trying to address the changes we're talking about, presuming you're hopeful that it's going to address some of these deficiencies.
Riaz Shah 08:30
Yeah, I think, focus on things like tech and ethics and sustainability is really, really important, because that's all part of the shift that accountants have to make to being business advisors, rather than purely being accountants, rather than just focusing on the accounting rules and the tax rules, this is moving into much more business issues. I think it's great.
Philippa Lamb 08:47
Looping back to our kind of core theme of uncertainty. We've talked about uncertainty for early stage accountants, or even graduates considering a career in the profession, but it isn't just them, is it, facing uncertainty? Because I'm thinking about later stage professionals. The profession looks very different to the way it looked when they started, doesn't it?
Riaz Shah 09:05
One thing about uncertainty – I think it's quite funny – is I've met some people in their early 50s, and they're saying: I'm just going to keep my head down and stay away from all this until it disappears. It isn't disappearing. This is here to stay. And actually, I think uncertainty is here to stay. That's quite tricky, because as human beings, we really value certainty. It's one of the core sort of social needs that we have. And if I look at some of the partners I knew 20 years ago, they always felt they had the answers. Any question their team would have them, they would be able to give the answer
Philippa Lamb 09:38
Yes, with age and experience.
Riaz Shah 09:39
Yeah. And here we are now where we don't have the answers. And that's a really uncomfortable feeling, that uncertainty; not having the answers to give your team. And what I say to those leaders is: we've got to shift from having answers to asking the right questions. Because the answer might not be in you. It might be in the diverse set of experiences that you have around the table. You, talking to other people. You, talking to younger people. You, talking to people in a different industry. That's where the answer might lie. So this shift from answers to questions is really, really important in dealing with uncertainty.
Philippa Lamb 10:13
That is a radical perception change, isn't it? For accountants mid-career, who started out with the idea, quite understandably, that they would become more expert over time. They would have the answers by the time they were mid-career, and they would go on to become more and more expert, more senior and better remunerated, and that's how it was going to go. Now they're confronted with this very unsettling reality: that's not the case, actually. It's a perpetual learning scenario. So I mean, obviously you were Head of Global Talent Learning at EY. It's all about what the employers are going to do for them, isn't it? Because accountants can't do this by themselves. How should they be supporting those people?
Riaz Shah 10:46
Well, I think you have to paint a picture for everyone that this future is more exciting, that there is new stuff to learn, and that can be exciting. How do you make learning interesting and exciting? Again, if you shift from the boring old classroom stuff to avatars teaching you how to do fee negotiations, or on demand learning, so that you can just do 10 minutes of learning before you see a client. That becomes much more useful. So I think micro learning becomes important, and what we found was that group learning is important as well. So it’s giving people an opportunity to share their ideas about their experiences, because if you know that somebody more experienced than you is going through a tricky time in shifting as well, then you're more likely to go: ‘oh, okay, so if he's going through that, it's okay for me to go through this’.
Philippa Lamb 11:31
There's a budgetary end for this, isn't it? There's a tough end to this, because obviously with learning and development, in tight economic times, those budgets have been squeezed. But from what you're saying, actually that's exactly the reverse of what needs to be happening, right?
Riaz Shah 11:43
Yeah. You know, in accountancy firms, we need to treat L&D just like pharmaceutical firms treat R&D. It's our research and development arm, our learning and development. EY used to spend, or spends, half a billion dollars a year on learning and development, and I think that's about the right level; giving everybody 60 hours of learning every year. That's the right level. In fact, I think it's got to increase delivery in a different way, maybe through lots of apps and on demand learning, but I think people have got to learn and invest in themselves to make this shift.
Philippa Lamb 12:18
Is that actually happening on the ground in the profession? I mean, we've talked about the firms, but what about individual accountants? How can they best prepare themselves for this ongoing uncertainty?
Riaz Shah 12:27
Well, I've been thinking about this for a while now, ever since I started teaching executives. I always say that I think there's three things that senior people ought to be thinking of – all of us all should be thinking of – and that's firstly, to be more curious, however curious you are. Now, how can you be more curious? How can you ask more questions? How can you experiment with AI? How can you share your learnings, run ‘what if’ analysis, that sort of thing. How can you just be more curious? That's the first one. Then the second one is to be more bold. It's not enough just to read more stuff and understand more, you've actually got to do something with it. And I think you've got to move beyond the numbers. As an accountant, pilot new services. Work with clients and say: what if I did this for you? Would you find that valuable?
Philippa Lamb 13:13
What sort of things?
Riaz Shah 13:16
Workforce planning for example, scenario analysis. With things like tariffs, we're finding in some countries, entire businesses are losing access to their biggest market in the US, with a tariff of 30%. Suddenly they're having to change. We should be at the forefront of that. We should be talking to clients and saying: by the way, what if this happens? What are you going to do? So I think being more bold, and finally, being more human, because in the age of AI, the worst thing I think we can do is to try and be more like the AI.
Philippa Lamb 13:48
Right.
Riaz Shah 13:48
That's not going to work. AI will do what it does, and it will continue to expand what it does. I think we ought to double down on what makes us uniquely human; those things around caring, empathy, mentoring others, diversity, listening to other points of view. Really kindness and showing empathy in a crisis, and we're kind of going through a crisis at the moment. Some people are finding all this change too much, and showing empathy for that is a uniquely human skill. That's what I think our leaders should be focused on. So how can leaders be more curious, be more bold and be more human, is what I always say.
Philippa Lamb 14:11
You're going to be speaking about all this, aren't you, at the ICAEW annual conference?
Riaz Shah 14:29
Yes, absolutely. On the 17th of October, when the Annual Conference is in London, I'll be running a session on how to thrive in this age of uncertainty.
Philippa Lamb 14:34
Thanks so much for being with us, Riaz.
Riaz Shah 14:36
You're welcome. Good to talk to you.
Philippa Lamb 14:40
Now Paul Guess from Cabo has been listening to Riyaz with me. I thought it was interesting what he said about the cultural direction the profession needs to take. I'm guessing that chimes with you
Paul Guess 14:56
Absolutely. With points like 'be curious', when we're talking about mental health that is at the forefront. If you're not being curious about yourself, you're not really looking at yourself. You're not seeing where you are at any one time, you can't see the danger signs coming so easily. And of course, 'be human'. That warms my heart when I hear someone, certainly of Riaz's calibre and experience, speak in terms like that. Using the word empathy; that is so strong, so powerful, so important. It's a key part of mental health and mental health support. So hearing these being set out as underlying principles of the way the future should go, it's very, very encouraging
Philippa Lamb 15:32
By an educator.
Paul Guess 15:33
Absolutely, yeah.
Philippa Lamb 15:34
Accountants come to you for mental health support and assessment with uncertainty all around in the ways that we've been discussing, are more of them coming to you now than they did when you started?
Paul Guess 15:44
Absolutely. We had a bit of a dip in 2020 which I think we'd all understand why suddenly it's not possible to sit in a room with a counselor and discuss your problems. So the industry had to catch up. So across 2020 things like telephone and video counseling became the norm. We have seen since then a steady increase in the number of people coming to us. We've also seen an increase in the severity of the cases. So whereas before, they could be handled with a few sessions of telephone counseling or whatever we recommended, we're now working with psychologists. We've increased the number of sessions. We've got a new provider, so we are seeing an increase in the number of people coming to us, an increase in the severity as we're trying to fill the gap between waiting for local NHS services to be available. And we're also seeing a drastic increase in the number of sessions we're offering. So we've gone from five or six people to up to eight to 10. So it tripled, quadrupled. It's been very encouraging. Hopefully it's part of people becoming more aware of mental health and following covid. I think that's certainly a message people have been getting to. They were locked up in their homes for months on end and stuck with family members. And even after Christmas, we start to see a little bit of strain. So after months and months of enforced lockdown, people really started to become more aware of their mental health, of their danger signs, and started looking for what could be done to help them.
Philippa Lamb 17:09
There's that, as you say, there's the root causes, the understanding, the awareness, the willingness of people to come forward, but there is also increasing pressure for people, this throughline of uncertainty. I think I'm right, saying you don't directly ask people why they've come to you, do you? So I suppose what I wanted to ask you was: is your sense that it's personal or professional drivers, or a combination of the two?
Paul Guess 17:32
That's correct. Part of the reason we don't like to interrogate clients when they come in, making that first step, admitting that you need help, and admitting it's in an area that for so long has been quite stigmatised – that is an act of supreme bravery on their part. We don't want to make it put another block in their way that they have to have this conversation. They have to justify why they need help.
Philippa Lamb 17:56
Right.
Paul Guess 17:56
So we are there to help them make that transition from inquiry to an expert in the field. So when I do speak to clients, because I do get a mix, I get a mix of people who just want to get the service. They don't want to discuss it. They're not ready yet. Then other clients will use that first conversation with myself as their first session. They've got someone who is prepared to listen to them, right? And that is such a rare thing. People in conversations are just waiting for their turn to talk. We've all had this before, so having someone who's prepared to just listen and reflect back, when these people who do feel the need to talk to someone, who have taken that opportunity, they can be very forthcoming. It is quite a privilege to share some of the stories that I get told, and I am hearing stories from all walks of the accountancy life: from students, new starters, to those who've been established a long time or even retired. The age group has diversified quite a lot over the past few years.
Philippa Lamb 18:57
Has it? Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that, because we think of this as something that is more common amongst younger people.
Paul Guess 19:04
That's certainly true. I'd say that most of our clients at the moment are students or young starters. However, the older age groups have been filling up the ranks a bit more. I do speak with people quite regularly in their 50s and 60s, sometimes even older.
Philippa Lamb 19:17
Are they bringing different problems?
Paul Guess 19:19
I think so, yeah. Because of what their stage in life is, because of their experience, they are more likely to bring issues about their children. They have, for the most part, dealt with the initial stresses of training, of having to learn and work and balance a life. So part of that stress has gone, but it's been replaced by the every day: they've got children, they are in positions of responsibility and power. There's more expectation of a certain level on them. So it does change, but there is always a common thread. There's always a sense of family that's strong, a sense of just trying to do the best they can and trying to get something out of the world. As you say, the world is so uncertain, just trying to make some sort of sense of it. And when you put on top of that all the everyday pressures, the individual pressures, everyone has an individual experience. So no two stories are the same. We see at CABA through all of our services, we challenge the stereotype of the Chartered Accountant every single day. There is that certain image.
Philippa Lamb 20:23
So tell me, what do you mean?
Paul Guess 20:24
Someone who is affluent, someone who has all the money they can ever need, someone who has made their career and they know what they're doing, they're very in control. But life doesn't work that way. We have people who have had life happen to them, and it doesn't matter how much you save for, how much your pension pot is; if there is a family emergency and suddenly you need to build a new room on your house to accommodate someone, all your plans are out the window, and that's where we can come in to try and give some support across various levels.
Philippa Lamb 20:54
Bearing in mind everything you said about not interrogating people about causes, presumably, for some, I'm guessing, perhaps for many work related stressors are compounding, if not the original cause of their problem. They're compounding the difficulties.
Paul Guess 21:08
Oh, absolutely, it is a common theme.
Philippa Lamb 21:10
What sort of things do they talk about in relation to work?
Paul Guess 21:12
With that one, it mostly comes from the student level, because it's trying to balance getting the work done, the studying and having a life outside of it. It is mostly the pressure and, absolutely, the uncertainty of what's going to happen. We've been talking about how AI is looming on the horizon and yes, there are innovators like Riaz who are talking about how we can utilise AI in a more positive manner. But does the ACA student know that?
Philippa Lamb 21:39
So do they see it as a threat?
Paul Guess 21:41
I believe so, yes.
Philippa Lamb 21:42
So that's a real failure of communication, isn't it?
Paul Guess 21:45
Yeah, it's one of those things that we can feel like we are spreading the message, but unless we are checking in with the person we're talking to, how can we be absolutely certain that the message we're trying to give is being received in the manner we intend it to? So there's always more that can be done to reassure people that, yes, the world is changing, the industry is changing, but there is still a place for you. There is still a chance for you to grow and to have the sort of life that you are hoping for. It might look a little bit different. We've all got to adapt, but there's still hope.
Philippa Lamb 22:16
Talking of difference: neurodiversity, specifically, perhaps, ADHD. Are you seeing many people coming to you to discuss issues around that?
Paul Guess 22:23
Oh yes. Over the past few years, our neuro diversity support has gone out of the roof. It's incredible. This year, I've had 400 inquiries for mental health, which has already beaten last year's total. In November, I am fully expecting to spend more time dealing with ADHD referrals than I am with mental health.
Philippa Lamb 22:44
And not all youngsters?
Paul Guess 22:45
Not all youngsters, but for the most part, our service is designed to support students who are doing their Acas in order to get the certification they need for reasonable adjustments in their exams.
Philippa Lamb 22:55
Okay, that's specifically in the area of neurodiversity and ADHD?
Paul Guess 22:59
That's correct. So far, we are always looking at how we can expand our service. We are looking at what the community needs. For example, when we changed our counselling so it dealt with more severe issues. We are constantly asking ourselves: is what we're doing appropriate? Is it enough? Are we filling in gaps that don't need to be filled in? But the problem is, along with mental health, neurodiversity is so in demand, the awareness has become so prevalent that the NHS and local services are struggling.
Philippa Lamb 23:28
They're overwhelmed.
Paul Guess 23:29
They really are. I spent a long time working with the NHS, so I have a lot of love for them, but I don't think it takes a bold person to say that they are overwhelmed.
Philippa Lamb 23:37
They’re under-resourced and can't contend with it?
Paul Guess 23:38
Absolutely.
Philippa Lamb 23:38
So you're picking up that slack as best you can.
Paul Guess 23:41
Some of it we can, yeah – we can pick up some. We don't cover medical costs, and that is one thing that can come as a bit of a contention when we're looking at ADHD, because we can provide certification saying, yes, you've got ADHD, but we can't help you with medication, and it can be a point of frustration. And this is what I mean when we're saying we're looking at how we can improve our service, because if someone comes to us at the moment with an ADHD certificate, they still have to go through the process of going through the NHS, and they've still got that multi-year wait time. So it's not perfect. It is a relatively new service, which we brought in in response to the demand from the ACA student body, and hopefully we can make it even better for them.
Philippa Lamb 24:20
So tell me about the services you do offer. Obviously, we've talked in general, but you offer counseling. Yeah, you offer help with employers around reasonable accommodations. And?
Paul Guess 24:31
So much. The simple answer is: if someone has any issues, talk to us.
Philippa Lamb 24:38
Financial support?
Paul Guess 24:39
We do financial support. We have a shortfall grant service. It is means tested. We have advisors on benefits. We have advisors on debt management. We have advisors on care. So if you're looking after an elderly relative or someone who needs extra support, we can advise on that. We have a legal advice helpline. So we have two streams of support: the support officers who do the benefits, the in house thing. So they are the experts on the subject.
Philippa Lamb 25:06
Very complicated areas to navigate.
Paul Guess 25:07
Yes, absolutely. When I hear them talking about what they know, I'm always dumbstruck by just the information they can pluck out of their head and having to keep up with the latest legislation, it's incredible.
Philippa Lamb 25:21
So they can smooth people's paths through those very difficult areas?
Paul Guess 25:22
Hopefully, yes. And then we have our partners such as counseling, neurodiversity, our legal advice helpline, and we also have a career coaching service for those who are unemployed or facing redundancy. So essentially: talk to us, tell us what the issue is, and we'll see what we can offer to help with it.
Philippa Lamb 25:39
Yeah, it's very encouraging. I did want to ask you, I don't know whether you heard the last episode, but we talked about whistleblowing.
Paul Guess 25:45
Yes.
Philippa Lamb 25:45
And obviously, you know, it goes without saying, there can be very major consequences involved in all of that. Do you see clients who are involved in whistleblowing cases?
Paul Guess 25:54
We do, but unfortunately, when we speak to people, it's usually because something's gone wrong. So the stories we get are of the ones where it hasn't ended as happily as it might. We don't know the full story, but what I see certainly ties in with some things that Andrew was saying last week, that 70% of people who go through the process feel victimised. That's not positive in any regard. It's a worrying number. And he also mentioned that people don't go out intending to be a whistleblower. They're just looking to raise an issue that concerns them.
Philippa Lamb 26:27
Yeah, protect their organisation.
Paul Guess 26:29
Yeah.
Philippa Lamb 26:29
Right a wrong.
Paul Guess 26:30
You can understand the stress, the anxiety this causes, because you don't know if it's just going to be an: 'okay, we'll get that sorted', Or if you're going to be sat in front of a committee with the media looking into your background. It adds uncertainty upon uncertainty, and you've got to try and deal with that on top of everything else that's going on. When people do whistleblow, they are basically externalising themselves. They're taking themselves out of their social group, which is a dangerous and threatening thing to experience. But in that time, you've also got to wonder: what about their friends? What are the people they have worked with for potentially years and years – friends, colleagues – suddenly, they're on the outside
Philippa Lamb 27:10
The knock on consequences.
Paul Guess 27:11
Yeah, and are those friends going to be implicated by the accusations? There's so much to do to take on, and I believe Brendan mentioned about anonymity. Fine, you can have it to start with, but eventually we all have a right to face our accuser. So that's going to go. So there is no real, solid story that we can look at and say that this went well. When we look at Carilion, you know that became a major thing. I know the name of Emma Mercer. Why do I know the name of Emma Mercer? But I do because she raised an issue, and suddenly... And this is what people are seeing as examples, the threat of being a whistleblower is so real that there is no reassurance, whereas what we can do as CABA is offer some of that support.
Philippa Lamb 27:57
So they can talk to you about that?
Paul Guess 28:00
Absolutely.
Philippa Lamb 28:01
And you mentioned anonymity. I take it your service is entirely anonymous?
Paul Guess 28:05
We work in exactly the same way you'd expect of a counselor or a psychologist. We are under no obligation to report any details to anyone, and that includes the ICAEW all of our clients are treated with complete confidentiality. There is the caveat of the traditional safeguarding that if we are concerned of a threat to your safety or that of another, but you'll find that with any counsellor you speak to, we'll follow the same process. We do have a safeguarding responsibility, and we do take it very seriously, but for 99.9% of our clients, confidentiality is absolute.
Philippa Lamb 28:38
So for anyone listening to this right now, thinking: this sounds good, this sounds like something that might work for me – what's their first step?
Paul Guess 28:45
If you just contact us, I believe that there will be contact details in the show notes, and then we'll be in touch. It really is that straightforward. There is absolutely no obligation to follow on with any inquiry. If you can reach out to us, we'll come back to you, ask some questions and see what we can do to help. No pressure, complete confidentiality.
Philippa Lamb 29:04
Just an exploratory chat.
Paul Guess 29:06
Yeah, and I can honestly say my colleagues are the loveliest people. They really are.
Philippa Lamb 29:10
That's good to know, Paul. Thanks so much for coming and telling us all about it. It's great to know it's there.
Paul Guess 29:15
Thank you for the opportunity.
Philippa Lamb 29:16
As Paul said, take a look at the show notes attached to this episode on your app or the ICAEW website to find links to the resources he talked about. Next time, we'll be taking another look at cyber security in Behind The Numbers – specifically how organisations should best respond to a major breach, particularly in light of the recent attacks on M&S and other retailers, hospitals, even more recently, European airports and, of course, Jaguar Land Rover. What can we learn from those events? Remember to log that you've listened to this episode on the website. They are all grist to your CPD mill. Thanks for being with us.