However, the working world is going through rapid technological and cultural transformation. So how is that changing the competencies that organisations look for in their leaders? And how can you best prepare yourself for taking on those roles in the future?
Host
- Philippa Lamb
Guests
- Neil Cutting, Transformation Director at Oracle
- Zana Goic Petricevic, leadership transformation expert
- Richard Davis, founder and CEO, FNLY
Producer
- Natalie Chisholm
Transcript
Philippa Lamb: Welcome to Behind the Numbers. 30 minutes of expert discussion on a fresh topic every month, and of course, eligible for your CPD record. I'm Philippa Lamb. This time, we're looking at routes to the C-suite and the traits, skills and capabilities you'll need to get you there. CEO, CFO, COO... these are some of the most sought after senior roles for accountants in industry, and they are achievable goals. Accountants are highly represented in the C-suite. One in four CEOs hold the qualification, according to research by Robert Half. But the working world – it's going through rapid technological and cultural transformation. So how is that changing the competencies that organisations look for in their leaders? And how can you best prepare yourself for taking on those roles in the future?
[Teaser audio] Richard Davis: There are moments, but you know, you take a breath and you go: "Okay, let's go. Let's go." And you jump in. And then when you're in it, you're in it, right? You're kind of swimming.
[Teaser audio] Zana Goic Petricevic: Go and look for those mirrors in your network. Who are those people that can reflect back to you how they're experiencing your ideas, your actions, the way you show up and learn from there.
[Teaser audio] Neil Cutting: Work with your mentors, follow your heart. A driver for me has been to help people, help businesses and drive transformation. And I've moved towards those organisations that share my values and I believe I would be happy in.
PL: Joining us remotely today to discuss that, we have three guests with deep C-suite experience. Neil Cutting is transformation director at Oracle. He sells CFO roles at Jacobs and Hewlett Packard, amongst others. Zana Goic Petricevic is joining us from Zagreb. She's a leadership transformation expert, formerly with PWC, now helping leaders across Europe to embrace change. And our third guest is Richard Davis. He runs fractional CFO firm Finley, and has himself worked as both a COO and a CFO largely in SMEs. Welcome everyone.
RD: Thanks for having us.
NC: Hi, everyone.
ZGP: Thank you for having us.
PL: I'd like to start by hearing about your own experiences. Richard, did you always have your eye on the C-suite?
RD: I wouldn't necessarily say C-suite so much, but in terms of wanting to succeed in what I did and to climb as high as I could professionally, and to see where that could take you, I think, as an early accountant especially, you're never quite sure: do I stay in practice? Do I come out? Do I go into industry? And that journey and that decision takes a bit of time, and I suppose once you're there and you go, "right, this is the route I'm on". Then for me personally, absolutely I wanted to keep progressing, keep progressing and see and see how far I could take my ability, I suppose.
PL: Neil, was it always your plan?
NC: I guess I was never expecting to aim for the C-suite. I always thought I would be a leader. You know, my father was in the police force, but nobody was in any professional bodies, in my extended family. So I certainly had no thought that I could ever get to a C-suite, but I thought I would lead people and lead teams.
PL: Zana, I know you talk to a lot of leaders – is there still a typical route for accountants to make it that high?
ZGP: I don't think today there's a typical route for anything, because everything is changing so much that all the routes to everything, to anything are changing. But you know, if you think about the route to C-suite, of course, you know the competence gets you into the room, right? So that you need to have a technical knowledge and that today is not enough with such a changing world, consciousness is what will define how well and effectively you lead once you step into that C-suite role. Why? Because things are so complex that once you step in there, there are so many issues and challenges that you don't solve, but what you do or what you know, but you actually solve them by who you are. And that actually means that one of the particular things today is that, besides the professional development, you have to spend a lot of time in your own personal development to get you ready for the C-suite role.
PL: See. Now that's interesting, because I think it would be fair to say young professionals are aiming for the C-suite, perhaps at an earlier age than their predecessors. And I'm wondering what you think about that? I mean, mid 20s for young professionals trying to set up as portfolio CFOs... it's not unknown, is it?
RD: It's definitely not unknown, I see more and more of it. I think there is an ability to lead that you can have at certain ages, at any age almost, right? And that can be peer to peer, but it can also be, you know, if you look at football, there are football managers who are younger than players, and they're leading top, top teams. So that innate ability to lead, I think, is sometimes within people. I do think, though, within finance, that there is an experience route that you need to go on and and to gather experiences. And that just gives you a book and a wealth of knowledge that you can always call on. And when you come across something, you know how to deal with it innately because you've done it or done something similar. And I think that old adage of, kind of 'getting the grey hair' and needing that to have some more leadership, I think, is still really important.
PL: Yeah I mean, Neil, as Zana says it's about competences, isn't it?
NC: Yeah, but I actually sort of, I disagree a bit with the young professionals aiming for C-suite earlier. Look, anyone who goes through a professional qualification, they're normally pretty, pretty hard working people, whichever route they come through, whether it's through a grad route or an apprentice route. They're hungry to get on, they're hungry. We all put ourselves through the pain and the hardship of getting the exams. People who go through that have always been hungry for the C-suite once they get to that stage. The thing that I think is just different, before we get on to your question, Philippa, is: I think with the world of AI, social media, YouTube, innovation is happening at such a pace, there's more opportunities for those who embrace all these extra things that are available to really leap forward in a way that wasn't available historically.
PL: How old were you when you took on your first C-suite role? What was it?
NC: My first very significant role was when I was about 30. I was at Hewlett Packard. There was a division that needed help. There was a new leadership team that was put in place. That was a huge, huge step for me at the time.
PL: How did it feel?
NC: Exciting and terrifying in sort of equal measure? There were the things that I expected. So I knew I was going to be accountable. I knew it was it was going to be a difficult situation. And I sort of knew that from the interview process. The thing that I was fearful of was, what happens if we don't turn it around? What happens if it continues on this downward trajectory and we didn't turn the ship around and increase the profitability and the cash making ability. Those were all things that were going through my mind at the time.
PL: Richard, how about you? How was the transition for you?
RD: Mine was pretty similar, actually. I think I was about 28 / 29, something like that. I went for an interview for a number two in an SME business, and I got offered a job, but the FD at the time said, "we'd like you to join, but I'm leaving. You're now the FD". And it was: "okay, let's do it". I don't know whether we're going to talk about later, you might stop me here, but this difference between FD and C-suite in an SME is really relevant, right? So you can jump in a bit earlier in an SME, right? It's not, it's not so hierarchical. The reporting lines aren't as rigid, I suppose, that you need to go through in corporate world, and especially when you get to C-suite, actually the strategic decision making that you need to do. You know there aren't millions of people potentially relying on those decisions that you're making. You know, it is a less exposed world. However, those decisions have a bigger impact, potentially on fewer people. So there is still that responsibility that comes with it. But I do think that journey can be slightly easier if you go down the route that I chose to go down. That's not to say what we said before about experiences isn't relevant and isn't right, but for someone like me, it was kind of like, "okay, I can, I can run this team, and I can help support the board here", and then keep growing from there. So it was exciting.
PL: I mean, I'm guessing it was quite frightening, wasn't it?
RD: There are moments, but, you know, you take a breath and you go, "Okay, let's go". Then you jump in and then when you're in it, you're in it, right? You're kind of swimming.
PL: Zana, as they say, there's a mindset change here, isn't it? I mean, how would, how would you best describe that for people making that step up?
ZGP: Mindset is a key thing, right? And so often we'll think it's just a technical step up, right? So 'I'll have to know more. I'll have to do more', but in fact, it's actually: 'I'll have to be more'. I would call it like there's an external promotion, and you step into a new role, but there's also an internal promotion that needs to happen. You need to promote your own identity into that new role, right? It's almost like you need to believe in your own story. I deserve that role. I can do that, and I don't base my authority only on the formal role, but I have something else to offer that will help people be inspired by me and trust me and follow me. So these are all elements of a mindset
RD: But you've also been trusted by people, right? They say to you, "Do you know what? We're going to give you the chance to do this". That helps significantly.
ZGP: But the key thing is you need to trust yourself, right? Because you know that so many times I ask these questions to leaders, like, "Why would anyone trust you?". And you need to know the answer to that question.
NC: Yeah, and that's where the people who have been your mentors or supporters or allies through your journey, whether internal or external to the company, they can really help you with that, to help hold a mirror up to yourself and understand 'Who are you?', from their perspective and that can really help in terms of self development. And this is where I think, this is obviously an ICAEW podcast, and from a volunteer and ICAEW as a family perspective: one thing that I realised too late was building that network in the world of ICAEW, where people only care about me, not whether the company makes money or loses money, they're just trying to help me. And I think I wish I knew that 20 years / 30 years earlier in my career.
PL: Because it does bring me to that question of imposter syndrome? I mean, I don't about you, but I've certainly felt it myself, and I've moved into more senior roles. You must have all experienced that a bit, surely?
NC: Yeah, look, I was a kid who went to, loving family, but I went to the local comprehensive school in Bristol. My career's advice was to go and work in the local factory when I was 15. That just made me work harder and gave fire in my belly. So people don't expect that of me when I tell them that, when I share that, and I probably it took a long time to share that type of thing with people, but now I've sort of been on that journey in sort of, being confident that being my authentic self is the best person to be, because anything else, when I try and be anyone else, it just creates stress, and then I actually don't perform as well as I could.
PL: Does that chime with the rest of you?
RD: 100% and I remember sitting in rooms thinking, "Why are these people listening to me? Why would anyone take my advice on when I was young?". And this was probably when I was starting out an accountancy just going, "I don't understand it. You built this successful business, and you're asking for my advice? You know more than me!".
PL: You were thinking this in the room, not afterwards, Richard, actually in the moment?
RD: I remember one conversation with a business owner, and I said to him, I remember saying to him, "Why do you need this stress? You're successful. Why do you still need this?". And I remember me in my head going, "Who am I to ask him that question?". It seems such a bizarre thing... and then when you're giving certain advice to business owners as well. But I think that's where the experience comes from. And going back to how we originally started, actually, imposter syndrome never goes away. I think everyone, I can't imagine there's many people in the world... I can think of one leader in the world right now who probably doesn't suffer from it, maybe he should.. but you always have that, you're trying to question, is this the right suit that I'm wearing? All of the things that are normal, and I think maturity and experience allows you to say: "Everyone is going through this. It's okay to feel like this".
ZGP: What Richard was saying is that, you know, we all think about imposter syndrome as something bad. But also imposter syndrome helps you to continue to learn, to continue to improve. Because if you take it to a certain point, you'll say, "Okay, I'm just questioning: is there anything else where I need to stretch myself? Is there anything else where I need to grow? Anything that I need to learn?". So it also serves us in a way.
PL: That takes me very nearly to my next question, because we've talked a bit about mindset, but should we talk about core skills and capabilities? Because I'd be interested to know what you all think they are. Zana, do you want to kick us off?
ZGP: Self awareness. I think that's non-negotiable. When you think about what you need to have in a C-suite role, but also even on that way to the C-suite role. So to use Neil's language, go and look for those mirrors in your network. Who are those people that can reflect back to you how they're experiencing your ideas, your actions, the way you show up and learn from there. Why? Because you'll have to understand, and especially when you reach the C-suite role, it's essential to know, is there a gap – and there always will be a gap – is there a gap in between your intentions and your impact? So something that you intend, the way you intend to show up, and how it actually lands with those people that are experiencing your leadership. You need to know that gap. That gap can be your blind spot, and it's essential that you know about that and that you actually grow the skills, the competencies that you need to grow to close that gap.
PL: Obviously, asking for input from other people is great, isn't it? But I'm wondering about putting a bit of process around it – psychometric testing? I mean, there's a whole array of stuff out there. Would you recommend it?
ZGP: Absolutely, as early as possible. If they're done well and if they go – I like to say this way – if they go deeper than just boxing people into some typical kind of personalities, they can truly help you to transform, to really, almost kind of reinvent yourself. To challenge your limiting beliefs, to, you know, learn about what else can be my impact here. Definitely, you need to select people who really have your best interests at heart, to evaluate you and help you see that feedback.
NC: The thing with self awareness tests, and whether it's Myers Briggs or Insights or whatever, I really wholeheartedly agree that you need to keep doing these throughout your career, and it's really important, what you say Zana about, it's not about just finding out which box or where on the chart you sit. It's: what does that mean, and also, does that resonate with you? Does what that's telling you reflect on who you are as a person and how you think? Does it bring you insights to help you work in the team and do a better job for the organisation that you're working with? And interestingly, mine's been pretty much the same since the first one I did at PWC in my first week of joining over 30 years ago, but it's helped give me guidance and signposts, and every time I've done it, I've learned something more, and when I share it with my family and friends, they laugh their heads off because they say, "that is you", so I need to listen (laughs).
NC: Would it be wrong of me to ask you to share with the group? Neil, is this Myers Briggs, we're talking about?
NC: Yeah.
PL: Don't feel under any obligation if you'd rather not!
NC: No, so I'm ENTJ, if that means anything to anyone. But then that's my normal, relaxed, strategic approach to dealing with things at a fairly high level. If things go wrong, I switch into ESTJ, which means I become very task (oriented). I solve the problem, and then once the problem's solved, I step away. That's thrown people over the years, and I've realised I've needed to signpost colleagues and teams, that the reason my behaviour is changing is because I want us to solve the problem for the organisation, it's not because anybody's done anything wrong, and once people know that, and they trust me and they've collaborated with me, it helps them get some of the grit out in the machine, and helps the machine work more effectively. Once I know some of my awareness.
PL: Plays into good comms. Richard, do you use tools like this as well?
RD: If I'm really honest, I find they are really useful for team building and trying to connect with people and doing it that way. I've done them in the past, and I've always sort of stored it as interesting. Yeah, that's kind of got me and yeah, but I've never been quite sure how to use it personally, other than until someone said to me, it just helps us make sure we're brought in the right team. And from that point of view, that's everything, right? And if we go back to the question about leaders and traits, that's what you're there to do – is to lead a team, it's to bring the best out of people around you, ensure you've got the best people around you, but also ensure you've got the right mix of people who can deliver what's needed for the business or for whatever strategy you're trying to you're trying to achieve. And that's for putting a CFO hat on. How do I push the business forward? How do I help them with the strategy? And what do I need for my people in order to deliver that, and to have that mindset is everything in a CFO, as much as experience, knowledge, etc.
NC: That is so important. And I think it's really important in that situation for the leader, whoever the leader is in the room, to be completely open about their strengths and their development opportunities, because we've all got them. And there isn't one type of leader who works successfully in every situation. Everyone needs to bring their authentic self, and different situations demand and require different leadership at different points in development.
PL: Well, yeah, that takes us to an interesting question...
ZGP: Can I jump in here?
PL: Yeah, do, Zana, do.
ZGP: It feels like you're talking about the feedback rich culture. That's one of the leadership tasks to to develop. So I've never used Myers Briggs to tell you the truth. I've used the leadership circle profile and the first time I did my results, I ended up being highly controlling, which was not a surprise at the time (laughs), but also it kind of opened my eyes in terms of... hmm, I need to notice that there are other people around me, and I need to notice how I connect to these people, rather than just drive the results and everything. But what I really wanted to say is that doing these tests also helps us experience a little bit of vulnerability as well, especially when we share results with our teams and with other leaders. That builds trust. It also builds accountability, because now that we've actually shared that, we have to do something about it. We have to work on our culture. We have to work on our own individual leadership, and it helps us get more connected and actually more intentional on how we develop and build our individual and collective leadership as well.
PL: This takes us to interesting questions, doesn't it? About where you take your career. Because if, as Neil says, you are who you are, and understanding that, as we've said, is absolutely vital to any sort of serious leadership role. But there is only so much you can do to change who you are. So this must surely play into the roles and organisations that you should realistically be looking at? Because I think, as Richard said, different organisations need different sorts of leaders. So that's a whole interesting area of discussion as well, isn't it? How do you do that?
RD: I think you naturally find that. I think there is a, certainly for me, there was a period in my career where I did things to know that I didn't want to do them. And I found that when I realised that it was quite powerful to go, "Let's try this. Has it worked? No, great. I'm going to try and find the next thing". And it's kind of... without knowing it almost at the time, it's got me to where I am now. Actually, counter to that, working for lots and lots of companies, but knowing actually that building my own thing was really important to me, as well as delivering for clients and for people. But I think the pressure at an early age to try and answer this question, 'what do you do or who you are', is almost impossible. You have to kind of trust that process of working and understanding and growing and letting yourself grow into what possibilities you can achieve, right? I say to my kids all the time, "I don't care how well you've done. I care that you've done your best", and what can I achieve, and how far can I go with who I am is far more important, right? Than everyone trying to get to C-suite levels, right? That's not achievable, and that's okay.
PL: But presumably, Zana, you'd argue it's always going to be important, isn't it, that you do attempt to do stuff that is outside your comfort zone, that is outside what you might imagine you want to do to fully understand your capability?
ZGP: But there is one prerequisite to that... to do that because you want to do that, not because you think you should. And here I want to build a little bit of what Richard is saying, and also what Neil mentioned at the very beginning. You know Neil, when you talked about young people being hungry. So I think it's really important to spend time exploring: where is it that this hunger comes from? Is it, "I believe everybody should aim to step up in hierarchy", or is it, "I really want that? Because I know who I am. I'm exploring my authentic self. I know what I want to create", and, you know, that's a kind of a healthy ambition. I'm not doing it just because other people say, "Well, you're in a good position to go after that. You should do it".
NC: "I want to have a bigger impact on the environment", or whatever is the driver...
ZGP: Exactly, because what we have today, so many young people, they reach such high positions, they're unhappy. You know, that's not what they signed up for, but just, they just didn't know. But that's okay as well, as long as you can take a risk and, you know, make an authentic decision and say, "Okay, thank you. I'm changing the route here. This is not for me". But we need to have that healthy ambition that comes from the inside, rather than from the environment is trying to convince us... that's a clever path to take.
RD: I think there's an interesting thing here, which has changed recently, which is: opportunity. I think if I go back to previous generations, opportunities were restricted to where you worked, maybe who was in your close network, and that was kind of it. So your environment sort of taught you and showed you what that's all you possibly could be. If it was in front of you, you could see it. Nowadays, every opportunity is out there. Everyone can see what people are doing and how they got there, and what their journey was and that education piece. So it's no wonder the, sort of, 20 somethings are going, "I can get there now. I can do it quicker. Look, other people have done it", and how we work is completely changing. So to have sort of my generation, our generation talking about this, actually, it will be interesting to hear from the 20 somethings as well, going "Well, we don't have to be rigid. We don't have to follow that: I went to an accounting firm. I got my qualification, I then got this job, I then got that job...". It's very, very different now.
PL: Neil, how do you see that transforming?
NC: It really resonates with me about being your authentic self. Showing self awareness. Work with your mentors, follow your heart. For me, a driver for me has been to help people, help businesses and drive transformation. And I've moved towards those organisations that share my values and I believe I would be happy in. That's been a real driver for me. The driver that we haven't talked about is, so the big driver for me hasn't been money. It's been a byproduct, and that's not the same as all the people who I studied with. So that's one thing that you need to work out what your drivers in life are. The other thing is, then, on a more practical skills perspective, for me, it's been about, and I've had this ingrained in me from a young age, but about doing the right thing. And that involves, as a leader, taking some really tough decisions and helping collaborate with people to move through what I learned to ZOUD, which is help people move through that zone of uncomfortable debate in order to take some difficult actions. And I did corporate recovery after audit for a few years, and that really stuck with me: if you don't take these decisions, bad things that can happen with organisations, which often results in a lot of people losing their jobs and their livelihoods, and this is where it impacts families. So that's been a driver for me to attack the ZOUD, move through that zone of uncomfortable debate on tough stuff that needs to happen.
PL: But that does call for maturity, doesn't it?
NC: Yeah, and experience and the willingness to do that, which is, I guess the courage.
RD: I think finance is in a unique position as well there, where you have knowledge and you know things that people, maybe your mentors, don't know because you have access to numbers and decision making, etc. And we talk about that experience and that maturity, actually maturity of knowing that you have to make really difficult decisions for people you know and like as well, and the first time you do that in finance as a senior finance person is brutal. You know, this is someone who you've sat next to, you've gone to the pub with, who you've... whatever you do with them, they're your friend. But actually, it's a decision that's got to be made for the company and wider people and more people. And that's a really hard...
NC: When you're promoted above your peers as well!
RD: 100%, yeah. That's a maturity thing.
PL: We've talked a fair bit about values. It's important and it's interesting. I think I'd like to talk about practicalities. I'd like to talk about how you see the role changing. You know, with the technological change we're seeing, the pace of change we're seeing, if we think about CFO, which is obviously the most common role for accountants. How is that role evolving now?
NC: I think the opportunity that AI and automation presents as CFO in the future, it's available today and in the future, is amazing at freeing up time. And I'm a process geek, so I look at it quite simply, which is, the end to end process is you can help get those automated a lot more than now, get them robust, and get that whole process automated really quickly, and that frees up time. And I have not come across any finance team that I've ever worked in where everyone's going, "I've got so much time I don't know what to do with it". So I think, you know, embracing that technological shift, to free up more time so you can focus more on what the business wants from you, which is to aid decision making and to provide input and strategic direction. And it ties in with a lot of people's career path as well, to free up that time to focus on that, on those areas.
RD: 100% exactly that. That's what we, Finley, kind of specialise in as a starting foundation block, where you've got to build the right finance outputs to then be able to do the strategic stuff. And actually, in the SME space, it is abundant, all the tools that we have, that we can use, that we can solve problems with, are fantastic. At the moment, the issue that every, I think, professional firm especially, is going to find is, how do you bridge the gap of the doing, that you have to do at some point in your career to understand what the foundations are, when it's actually automated and it's quite easy? And you're not, you know, without sounding like a complete ladder... I remember learning on a big piece of paper and putting numbers down and seeing how they flowed through, right? That's how I learned the basics. And it's a long time ago, but it's actually... sometimes you still visualise them, and you go, "how do I need to do this? Okay." And actually, if you're missing that bit out, that's my bit of worry. Now for senior people, how it's going to change is amazing right? We can concentrate on strategy. We can concentrate on building data lakes and trying to get as much information that we can down so we can answer almost any question that is needed. In order to move the dial for the business. And that's ultimately what as CFO, what we're trying to do right is to help them move the dial in the right direction. So I think there's massive pros and cons. We'll get there, and we'll work it out, because we have to, almost as a humanity, we have to right? I'm thinking about lawyers and thinking about accounts and thinking about how everyone is going through that process, but in terms of opportunity, it's very exciting right now.
NC: And building on what Zana was talking about with muscles, you know, one of the biggest limiting factor is making all of us in our teams develop our AI muscle, because that's actually one of the biggest limiting factors at the moment in sort of developing.
PL: But does that experiential gap that Richard was talking about concern you, Zana? The idea that the next generation of CFOs won't have spent several years in the trenches doing the sort of grunt work that I think Richard was talking about early stage career. You know, it's in the back of his head. Everything he does, it's resting on that because he knows how it works. Next Generation won't have to do that. And you can see how that's really appealing as a young, early stage professional. Is that going to be an issue?
ZGP: I can relate to what Richard is saying, and I would probably say I agree with him. We kind of come from the similar generation, so I'm just worried if we're not biased, how we look at things. And we know that everything happens in a context and what's happening to us right now is completely redesigning the way we work. It's redesigning the way we think. And are we going to miss some of the things? I don't know. You know, we'll be able to connect the dots once we get into that future stage to actually say, "well, we that's where we made a mistake", right? But I think as a human race, we're resilient enough and intelligent enough that we'll, you know, we'll find our ways how to... just navigate in the new world. So I think maybe this question also needs to be answered by somebody who's a younger generation as well, to see their perspective on this.
RD: We don't know. That worry will... it will be answered, it will 100% be answered, and it will be solved. And then maybe we look back and go, "we never needed to know all that stuff. He didn't need to know it to know this stuff". But we don't know.
NC: However, I think there's a word which hasn't come up, which is 'fear'. With a lot of the engagement I do with ICAEW as a volunteer, I'm speaking with a lot of members in their 20s, so hopefully some of them might be listening. And because this is such a huge change which is happening, and it might not have happened in their careers before, there's a lot of concern about our jobs going etc, etc. Whereas once you've been through a few things. I was at Hewlett Packard when the dot-com bubble burst. I've been through credit crunches. I've been through having the first laptop and the first mobile phone in the office and taking it out in a suitcase. These transitions of technology will change things, but there will be new jobs and there will be new opportunities. And one thing's for sure is, those people who embrace whatever the change is, in this case, we just happen to be talking about AI, will be part of that opportunity for new roles. And other roles will sort of wither on the vine.
RD: In the teams that I'm building, where we're using automation, which, as I say, we are a lot... there's been no reduction in a team. Actually, it's in efficiency and what we can then do and how much more value we can add. I'm not seeing jobs going, dare I say, yet.
ZGP: There's always one aspect of it, there's fear, right? What are we losing? But we could always choose to stay focused on the opportunity, but not on the opportunity in terms of, "I'm just going to be a bystander and look what's happening". But how do I jump in and shape the opportunity for the future? Right? So if we're not being hijacked by the fear, we have more, if you want, headspace to think about, how can I jump in and shape the opportunities for the future that are just being available here by the new technology?
PL: Well, in that case, I think I'm going to ask you to wrap this up for the audience by talking to the early stage professionals you know who are listening to this now and saying: what steps would you advise them to take to ready themselves for this reality? If that's where they're aiming, what should they be doing now?
ZGP: Always own your own development. Don't wait for somebody else to tell you: What is it that you need to learn? What skills will equip you for the future? Think about what excites you. Where's your passion? What does great look like in wherever you sit right now, in the next 6 or 12 months. What would stretch you? And then, what is it that you need to learn to face that challenge. You can be today with an employer that can offer you a lot or not that much. But if you stay dependent on somebody else driving your growth and your development for the future, you've actually outsourced your own success, and there's no need to do that. Stay really conscious, committed and dedicated and own your own development.
PL: Yeah, Neil, I think Zana makes an excellent point, particularly at time of restricted training budgets!
NC: And look, whose interest is it in? It's in your interest. And you know, nobody should ever forget that. The one extra thing, learn from my mistake... So I was late in getting involved with ICAEW as a volunteer, and again, building this network with people who are not in your direct firm or organisation builds another group of trusted people who... you can get a couple of things out of that, selfishly, for your career. One is: career resilience. You've got a much broader network of people who will look out for you in times of trouble. The other thing is, it's a really safe space as a volunteer to go and try some different things. If you want to try and do something new in presenting or chairing a group or working in AI, you can get involved in a safe space, and just when you go back into the office, you will be more effective, and you can do that. So that's one from a volunteer perspective, and you know, and get involved and see what's out there within ICAEW, there are things going on within every region where we operate as chartered accountants and students across the world. So whether you're within the UK or overseas or international, there are things going on all over the world. And ICAEW can put some links in this podcast to show how to get involved with that. There are also global faculties, global communities of interest. If you work in retail, if you work in tech, there is loads out there, if you want to get involved. And then once you start looking under the surface, then you'll find more and more. As I did very late in my career.
PL: We'll put links in the show notes. Richard, do you want to wrap this up for us? Your words of wisdom.
RD: (Laughs) That's a loose term there. I would say a few things: I think anyone who's doing the exams now knows how hard it is, right? It's not easy. You know, you're working while studying for a good few years. It is worth it... you know, as I sit here right now, it's definitely worth it. So keep going through it. But I would say two things on the back of it: A) Counter to what you're saying, you've got to go and do it yourself. And actually, the new generation is really good at that. That's the one thing we see a lot, right? There's an expectation that they can do it... as in, the expectation amongst themselves they can do it, but they are doing it. And going and seizing opportunities yourself and not waiting for other people to give it to you or to hand it to you, is the best way to keep growing and keep moving forward. Because no one believes in you as well as you should believe in yourself, is my my little LinkedIn nugget there.
PL: Excellent advice. Thank you very much everyone. It really, really... a lot of food for thought there, I think, thank you.
RD: Thank you.
NC: Thanks for having me.
ZGP: Thank you.
NC: Now, as I said, you will find more resources to guide you on your journey to the C-suite on the website. We'll put links in the show notes. Next month on Behind the Numbers, we'll be talking about sustainability reporting. There is a lot happening there this year. We'll be exploring how that could impact on your work. Remember to log this podcast as CPD on the website. Check out the back catalogue. You'll find over 100 episodes to browse through. They're all eligible as CPD. If you like what you hear, please do subscribe on your chosen app, so you'll never miss an episode. While you're there, you could think about leaving a review. I know every podcast asks you to do this, but this podcast, it is for you, and we really would like to hear your feedback and your suggestions for future episodes. So thanks for being with us.
