Host
Orkhan Freeman
Guests
- Dale Pollitt, Director and Co-Owner, Ryans Chartered Accountants
- Annabelle Mudge, Trainee Accountant, Albert Goodman
Transcript
Orkhan Freeman: Hello and welcome to ICAEW Student Insights. My name is Orkhan Freeman and today we're discussing the different career opportunities available in practice. Whether you're in a training agreement or you've just qualified and you're considering what comes next, there's lots to keep you engaged in practice. It's just a matter of finding out what interests you most and communicating your career goals with your employer. To share their experiences in practice, I'm joined by Dale Pollitt, Director and Co-owner of Ryans Chartered Accountants, and Annabelle Mudge, Trainee Accountant at Albert Goodman. Thank you both for joining us today.
Dale Pollitt: Hi Orkhan. Fantastic to see you.
Annabelle Mudge: Hi Orkhan. Nice to meet you.
OF: I guess, let's start with telling a bit about yourselves, your background, work, where you're from, and things like that, and how you got started in this.
DP: Okey dokey. So grew up in a very small town just outside Manchester, fairly modest background is the honest answer. Didn't have a clue what I wanted to do when I left school, went, kind of went to a college where my friends would go in, as everybody does. You're following people around at that stage, and fell into accountancy. Kind of decided the university route wasn't for me. Fell into it at 17, got an apprenticeship, did my AAT and then moved on to ACA. And I think they were the formative years, really, in my career. We kind of got into our early 20s, and I'd realised this could be a real good thing for myself, for my career. Managed to get through my exams. My boss at the time, who's now my business partner, once I'd finished my ACA, said: “Right, let's do CTA Dale.” I've done enough exams, thanks. Really good thing for me. At the age of 26 I was offered partnership, bought into the practice and bought 50%, and then from there on out, we've worked really hard to kind of grow and scale the practice. So I work in general practice, owner-managed businesses, a lot of family businesses, do a mix of kind of compliance and advisory work.
OF: Nice.
AM: So for me, I always wanted to be a maths teacher, and that was the dream, since I was like, this big and I did maths for my A levels, and then went to do my university and did maths. And then, unfortunately, I had really, really bad mental health during those years, from like, my second year of uni, and I ended up having to sort of leave and move back home. I'm from Wales, from a little village in Wales. [laughter] Yeah, it was weird going back there. And I just started with the Open University, doing part time, and then working part time. And slowly finished my degree. And then after that, I was like, What am I going to do? I started working in credit control as a full-time job, but part-time degree at that time, just to pay the bills and get everything done, and I found myself really interested in what the accountancy department was doing. And I thought, oh, that sounds really interesting. And I saw that some of them were on like, um, were doing their exams at the same time. And so I started, like, googling the area where I live, you know, what, you know, what accountancy firms were, you know, did apprenticeships, and again, just fell and found the firm that I'm with now, and found Albert Goodman, and they have been amazing. And that's sort of where I've stuck. I'm doing my ACA, my second year, and absolutely loving it. Like is, it's almost like it was just meant to be. And part of, you know, I said I want to be a teacher, so part of it, I've found has been really nice, is the training, and because it's almost like I'm getting to be that teacher that I always wanted to be as a kid. But in teaching them how to be an accountant, as I figure out how to be an accountant as well.
OF: That's lovely. I mean, you both kind of touched on it. You kind of, Dale you mentioned you kind of fell into it a little bit. And Annabelle, you've mentioned, obviously, that's now what you're really enjoying, is what you wanted to do in the past. It's really nice that actually, somehow, some way, you've ended up doing what you really enjoy. You both mentioned it: firms, practice, whatever the word we're using in, you know, in our space, what would you define as practice? Just before we go into it a little bit?
DP: I think practice really is all about servicing clients for their needs. I always split it into two defined routes. Kind of that compliance base, okay, keeps the wolves from the door, and that's going to keep you out of jail. And then you have the advisory stuff that's going to make a real difference to people's lives. And as we continue to see more software come into our industry, you're seeing compliance work do this because it's getting much more efficient, much slicker, and it allows us to do what I think accountants were always supposed to be doing, is advising, okay, making a real difference to people's, people's businesses and their lives.
OF: Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it, because that just really enhances that value add, which is why people come to us, yeah. And that's, that's really good. In terms of sort of, you're both at different stages of your career now. Obviously, Dale, you're within your practice in, one of the one of the owners in your practice. Annabelle, you're going through the training at the moment, so your first two years – how have you found it? How does that compare to what you wanted to do? Maybe as a teacher.
AM: Yeah, it's it's been amazing. Like, truly, I've had so many opportunities. I've been very lucky. I was not expecting accountants to be as down to earth and just normal. I was really expecting them to be sort of stuffy, almost, you know, in their suits and everything – we do wear suits – but just you're having a laugh and enjoying yourself. And then, like I said, I've been able to enjoy teaching and helping the clients. So, you were saying about the advisory style versus, sort of the general accounts and tax, you know, and all that compliance stuff. I found that when I started, you start with just the compliance, because you're learning the basics, and then as I'm moving up, I found myself actually advising clients and helping with like inheritance tax and things like that. And that has been really what I've loved. I've loved having client meetings where I meet the real person and I get to talk to them, and it just not be the numbers. I've got a face to that and what this really means, and how the numbers actually apply to their real lives. And that's been really, really rewarding, because, you know, part of wanting to be a teacher was because I wanted to help people learn, and I wanted to help people, and that's what I want to do in my life. And so helping people has been so rewarding. And regardless whether that's the clients or that's my colleagues or, you know, even friends who will say to me, oh, Annabelle, what do I do with, you know, when they're starting a business, and most of the times, my thing is like, well, I'm a trainee, so we don't take everything I say as the truth – cover my back there – but it's been helping people, and that's been really, really lovely and rewarding.
OF: Nice. I mean, you've both mentioned it, I guess, is it fair to say, you're both coming back and you're both pursuing practice because of that advisory to people, of the ability to help people, the ability to see the reward in when they when they need help with something, and you're able to provide it to them. They, you know, you get satisfaction from that. Is that fair to say?
DP: I think so, yeah. I think Annabel has raised a great point when we talk about compliance versus advisory work, you can't really do the advisory by having such a great compliance bedrock and base, and once you've got that, I personally got satisfaction from that as well, because I'm kind of sad basically, seeing that we were helping clients to hit deadlines. Cool, absolutely fine. And then you move on to the kind of advisory bit and you're like, well, now this is making a much bigger difference, a much, much bigger difference. But yeah, I'd say so, I think not just in the role I'm in now, it's not just clients, it's seeing the team grow and kind of assisting them as well, giving them a platform to enable them to make the best of their abilities. I think that's really powerful. If you dumb my job down, I've got two bands of people, yeah, I've got my team and I've got my clients. That's it. Dale keeps both of those people happy, and how he keeps them happy is keep them continuing to grow, helping them to achieve what they want to achieve, whatever that might be.
OF: Yeah. And how was the journey to kind of getting to the point where you're comfortable in doing that? Because obviously, you know, 17 going into accountancy, you're kind of sprung into this world, and then when you get your own practice, again, it's something that's coming to you as new, you're learning as you go along with that, if that's fair to say. How are you finding, how did you find the growth from where you were to now where you're managing that really well?
DP: I think Dale in his early 20s is a different beast to Dale today, different person altogether. I think I personally feel it's helped me, the career's helped me mature. It's formed me as a person and as an individual. What was really daunting at one point in time – so I made partner at 26 – kind of sat in meetings with these 50-odd-year-old guys who are running their own businesses. I'm like, I can't tell these guys what to do and how to do it. And I think it came with a little bit of experience and exposure to those situations. I realised very quickly these guys aren't financially trained, okay? And you assume a lot of knowledge at first, you really do. But once you get over that hump and realise actually they're listening here, and I'm adding value, and I think I can help them to understand and explain their accounts, maybe a little bit better, or a little bit about business and how to retain and attract staff, whatever it might be, I feel that's, I feel that's where my confidence then grew, from that point onwards. It was definitely daunting at first, though, but it's a journey ultimately, and I think it just comes with experience more than anything. I'm saying to our guys, don't rush it. Don't rush it. You'll be absolutely fine in the end. You just need to expose yourself to those meetings, push yourself out your comfort zone to get in those meetings and get in front of those clients, and you'll start to help them out.
OF: Yeah, that's a really interesting point, actually, pushing yourself, getting out of your comfort zone and getting into these scenarios, that then eventually helps you progress. I guess, Annabelle, when you started, is this something that you were sprung into? Were you kind of pushing yourself to get into these meetings, to meet clients face to face and see people?
AM: Yeah, so we sort of, we start off really not seeing the clients. Obviously, we just know, not really a lot, and it's been a slow thing, and very recent that I've started going into client meetings and helping. But what was quite nice was that we can prepare sets of accounts on site, so we'll go to a client's premises, and that way you're getting the sort of exposure with a client without being in that advisory role. You're there to sort of prepare and you ask them questions and get documentation and things, so that I found really enjoyable and it's been quite insightful, sort of seeing them and seeing how they work. And yeah, I found that was really good. But actually, the meetings and things less sort of common, and I've been sort of more as like a back seat, and especially, I say, on Teams or something like that, I've been able to sit in on those meetings. But I think the cost of going to a client's, you know, when you've got a manager and a partner going, me tagging along, it's not really adding value to the client. So it's been one of those where they, it doesn't happen that often, until you start managing your own clients. But [I've] the ones I have done really, really enjoyed. And it's clicking. It's putting everything together, rather than it sort of being like I said, just numbers. What is your profit? Well, actually it means something, so and also, because I work with farmers, we don't always look at the profit. We look at other things, like for dairy, it's like pence per litre schedule, so how much profit they're making per litre of milk they've actually sold. So it's completely different to then when I work with estates, and they're looking at something completely different, you know, looking at the rent, or looking at the IHT position. So I think having variety, going back to the whole practice thing, why practice? Because I get that variety of clients, and I get that, you know, every job I do is different, and I get to sort of pick on different parts of my knowledge and learning about that, learning about IHT, everything like that.
OF: And it's obviously quite a lot to learn, and obviously you are where you are now, but when you first started, how supportive of – and even to this day – have Albert Goodman been sort of throughout that process?
AM: Oh, incredibly. I could ramble forever about them and how great they've been, you know, having this opportunity now to be here. They were the ones that sort of pushed for me to do this. I've been invited to, like, we had an Accounting Excellence Awards up in London. I'm from a tiny village. I haven't been to London since I was a child. And so, so scary, you know, going on the Underground for the first time last year. But also, in terms of, like, personally, I've had, I had a loss in the family. My nanny passed away, and one of the partners knew that, you know, my nanny was getting ill, because I told her, and she said, "Well, I know you're going to be travelling back to Wales, but why don't you go early this afternoon, take it, don't worry." And having that has been so supportive because, it means it's good for them in the sense that I'm very loyal now, because I, you know, I, you know, as a employer, the fact that they give, I can give back. But, you know, in terms of my workload, when I'm getting close to my exams, they they take less, give me less sort of big jobs, or sort of take, you know, a little bit of the workload off me, and then I'll sit in on, you know, my regular PDDs and things like that. And I've said to them, I want to do more difficult trusts. And okay, they were like, right? And then one of the ladies that works with estates coming to me was like, Annabelle, I'm going to give you our most difficult trust. Good luck. And, yeah, and I've really, really enjoyed the hard sort of stuff, and I'm still doing that job, and I'm thinking about it right now and I'm like, oh wow, that's a lot to do, but it's that support, that feedback of things, I've been getting involved with sustainability. So I'm, we are a BCorp, and things like being able to run different days – so we recently had the cycle to work day where I helped run the day to, you know, get people to go into the office cycling, and all of these opportunities to sort of to do things. I spoke at a firm event in front of 200 people. I can chat forever, as you can tell, but like doing it in front of that many people I'd not done before, can be nerve wracking. Yeah, my Fitbit told me that I was exercising because my heartbeat was going that fast, but yeah, it was a really, all of these opportunities to grow my soft skills and just grow myself has been amazing, and I've loved it, and I just feel like I'm a, probably a very good representative for AG given that they've given me so much, and I'm just so proud to work there now.
OF: You can hear it really, hear their passion in your voice, which is really nice to hear as well. Dale, obviously, those are quite formative years, and you're getting quite a lot of guidance and support, and there's partners who've been through it and have done it. You went into a business in your formative years taking it on. How did you find that? Because did you have guidance coming in from outside?
DP: Yeah, certainly, yeah, certainly. So I joined Ryans with, with an opportunity. Yeah. Okay, so Clive was an existing partner, business owner with my current business partner, and he wanted to retire in five to seven years. And ultimately, they were looking around and they didn't really have much succession planning internally. So I came in at 21 kind of with the idea of Dale, come and get qualified, and let's see how it goes. Now I always stress this to people, I think it's one of the most important things somebody can do in the career, is get yourself a mentor, somebody who's done it. Wherever you want to be or whatever you want to do, find somebody that's trodden that path, and that was my now business partner, a guy called Martin Smith kind of took me under the wing as a young, eager, maybe overly enthusiastic, 21-year-old, and he's been great for me. We're kind of yin and yang in business now. I think it's so important to have that guidance as you go along.
OF: You've both kind of given your experiences, and you both come across as self-starters, and it sounds like that's what you value. So as an example, what really I think helped me when I was sort of starting is I had someone who was three months ahead – to your point earlier, about having that mentor, although he was not mentoring me, he was a bit of a figure to look to, to kind of, that is my example, that's what I want to do. And then it was a bit of competitiveness between us, so someone would say, who wants to do something small? Who wants to prepare a letter of engagement? Really, really small. But yes, we'll put our hands up, and between us, we'll, you know, compete at who's going to do it first. It's, it's really small, but you need something to keep driving you. And that was sort of my driving point. I guess it sounds like you're both, like, similar to that point.
AM: I think there's two things really for me. My first one is that I truly, and this may sound quite naive, I just want to help people. And that is like me as a person outside of work, inside of work. So when I'm like, oh yeah, I'll help you do this. It's part of it. Obviously there is like, oh yeah, that's going to help my career. But most of it is just me going, I actually see someone who needs help, and I want to help them. But then the other side of it is the fact that it was within my I think the first week I started working at Albert Goodman, and one of the partners, who was newly partner, he came in and he said, you know, just say yes to everything. And I've told him this because I've done quite a lot now. And I told him this, and he laughed, because I've just said yes to everything. It's why I'm here right now, is the fact that someone said, you'll do that for us. But you're like, yeah, sure, I will. But yeah, that's been sort of the two sort of fold is I want to help people, and then also, yeah, I'm just saying yes. I'm just saying yes to all the opportunities I can because you only have one life and at the end of the day, you know, I've got one career, you know, and I've got goals and in my head, when you work at a firm like I've got now, the top role is partner, managing partner. So that's what I want to be when I'm older, you know? And maybe that's a 20-year goal, whatever it is, but that's sort of where I see myself, and I'm taking my time with it and I'm, the idea of running a business – absolutely terrifying. What you're saying about that fear, I can't, you know, people say, would you start a business if you won the lottery, now, would you start your business? No, because I am just not there yet. You know, my skills and what I'm getting to, but I want to slowly so I see the steps, you know, I've gone from technician to semi-senior, and then I see myself going senior, then assistant manager, and work my way up. But, you know, that's always sort of the way I act may align very well with that, but it's not really intentional from my side. I think I just, I want to be useful, and that's how I get my enjoyment and like, kick for life is, is helping people. So...
OF: No, and that's, that's a really, really good quality to have. And getting to that, you know, managing partner level, I'm sure that you're going to need a lot of drive. And I guess what's driving you to get to that point is it the ability to help those people, as you just touched on?
AM: Yeah, definitely. It really will be. It's like that what I enjoy now with the training someone new is the fact that I'm helping her become, getting all these skills and becoming to what she wants to do. And I love that. And becoming into a manager means I'll be able to help clients and I'll also, you know, if I'm, I might be able to help train more people, or help them become the person that they want to be, and that is just s everything, isn't it? That's what I want to do with my life. And so, yeah, eventually we get there, I say, but I will. There's, there's lots of steps of just wanting to keep helping and keep growing myself and help other people grow.
OF: And that will, that will certainly help you grow, helping other people and then learning new ways of, sort of doing things, and getting that through to people is a rewarding feeling, as you said, going back to you want to be a teacher and things like that. Is there anything you would look back on – I appreciate it's been a couple of years – would you look back and tell yourself when you first started, to help you progress through that journey even better?
AM: I think something that I can, because I'm doing training now, so I'm, I remember what I was like when I was being trained, and I was very much like, please hold my hand the entire time. And I remember the first few weeks I literally had my trainer sat next to me the entire time looking at what I was doing, because I did not have that self-belief. And I think within my first PDDs, that became a very apparent point was, you know the answer and you're not doing it because you're checking first before you actually make the decision. So for me, I think making the decision and actually going with it and just putting a point why, and that's all managers are really looking for. From what I can tell is that, yeah, I've decided that this is what the accrual is going to be. Okay then, make a reason why, and then move on instead of being like, oh, I don't know, maybe I should ask the manager, what is the point or question? Just make a decision. And so then maybe that's that, that self-belief, but that's been part of my whole life, is the self-belief issues, so I don't know how much that's can change. And I don't believe in really, like regret. I think I wouldn't be in the position I was today if I hadn't made all the decisions to get to where I am and I'm happy now. So why would I ever try and change that? But yeah.
OF: You feel quite constructive about all of that in terms of how you would approach it, and there's a lot that you can now take forward and give to those new trainees. I guess with yourself, Dale as well, I appreciate you've had a number of sort of different things that you would have seen across your time at Ryans. And what would you tell yourself, firstly, when you first started, when Clive was first retiring, and I guess maybe you five, 10, years ago, what would you say to yourself and what advice would you give to potentially Annabelle, who's looking to, you know, progress in her career?
DP: Firstly, Annabelle, I think it's really surprising that you had no self-belief because I think you come across really confident. And I think, yeah, I think you've got some great skillsets. I think you'd be a fantastic adviser. What would I tell myself? It's a tricky one. It's a good question. I think I'd probably tell myself, when I first took over from Clive, just slow down. I'm a very, I can be quite impatient as a person. I want to achieve everything today, not tomorrow, and frustrate myself, and probably frustrate some of my colleagues a little bit with that at times, admittedly. Maybe just slow down, just a little touch, enjoy the process a little bit more. It was always the next step, next step. Just enjoy the journey. The journey is better than the destination, nine times out of 10. I think it really is in my case. And now I have definitely relaxed a little bit now into my role, probably grown more confident in the role, because I definitely had some self-belief doubts at first when I took over from Clive. But yeah, right now I'm I am just enjoying the journey. I think it's a it's a great thing. I'm enjoying helping other people, seeing people form and grow under kind of my directorship, it's a fantastic feeling, and trying to help out clients to do, to do that too. But I think my management style has changed dramatically in the last five years or so. Yeah, I think just slow down Dale.
OF: How, so in terms of your management style, in terms of, are you more patient now?
DP: More understanding is probably the better terminology. I would say, more understanding of the individual, their learning style, their personality, being a bit more empathetic to different situations, probably a little bit of frustration when I was younger, if somebody didn't grasp something maybe as quickly as I did, or I was expecting them to work a little bit [quickly] quicker through a situation, I would probably lose patience a little bit quicker. I'm a lot more relaxed now, kind of like, yeah, they'll get it, don't worry. And I look at myself more often than not, though, well, is somebody not understanding something because they don't understand it or is it really Dale's just explaining something absolutely terribly? Nine times out of 10, it's usually me. So yeah, I'm all holding a mirror up to my own face and say, can I explain this differently, in a different style? Do I need to sketch something out for somebody and just try and get into their learning style and their abilities a little bit better?
OF: How do you look at sort of keeping people motivated, staying at the company you've got, obviously, really good retention and things like that. How do you look at that?
DP: It's purpose. Yeah, that is it. People need purpose in their lives, in their careers. There's nothing really helps that motivates human when you real, when you really get underneath the skin of all this. So I try and take time to understand what's their purpose? What are they trying to achieve? Because I could say, well, Ryans is trying to achieve this. That's great for Dale, because Dale owns Ryans, yeah, whether that might not be great for the employee. So trying to help them to understand the purpose as well, because I think not a lot of people understand theirs. I finally only understood mine in the last maybe four or five years, truly, about why I enjoy what I do and where I'm trying to get to. So it's drilling down into that purpose, getting inside that head of the employee and saying, tell me a little bit about where you want to go and what you want to do, and then helping them to achieve that. That's it. Okay. We can take somebody from here even one step closer to their ultimate purpose and their ultimate understanding of why they're here and what they want to achieve in their careers. Great. That's my job done, as far as I'm concerned.
OF: Appreciate that, and thank you very much for your points today. Sorry to put you on the spot, but if you had to share one final piece of advice for the trainee who's listening to this now from two different perspectives. What advice would you give to that trainee?
AM: I think this is two-pronged really. My first one will be sort of trying to focus on your other skills, so that your training will teach you how to become an accountant. But you've got to to take a moment and look at yourself and think about all the other skills that takes, like the communication skills you know, your any sort of leadership styles, having, I guess, emotional intelligence as well, and understanding you. Those sort of skills, those sort of soft skills, I think, are much more important really, because they can teach you how to do tax returns and accounts, but that kind of person and those sort of skills are much harder to learn. And then the second one is something that I'm a big fan of, is just specialising in something. You know, I've got, like, a bit of software that I am really good at and it means that in my team, I'm the go-to person for that software. And that means that I'm valuable, and hopefully that means I'm valuable to the firm, but yeah, so I would really like those are my two sort of points would be, yeah, specialise in something and make yourself more well rounded as a person.
DP: Just to reiterate Annabel's comments, I think they're fantastic points. That holistic approach to your own personal development is key I find. Invest in yourself. Okay, absolutely fine, we're all going to get there with the academic qualifications, with a little bit of hard work. However, there is a lot more to it, as Annabelle has kind of explained. So investing in yourself, having self-awareness, emotional intelligence, is super important. We are in a client-facing industry, okay, we all know the subject matter. The clients don't. It's how we get that subject matter across to the clients in an easy-to-understand manner that they can digest and has an actual impact on their business, which is key. But the key takeaway, I'd probably say, for somebody who's going through the training: have a plan. Okay, you can deviate from the plan. The plan's like a river. It will it will ebb and flow as it goes along, but have a plan, set some goals. Work hard. That's it.
OF: It sounds like there's lots trainees can do to identify their interests and start working towards those long-term career goals. It doesn't matter if you're still working towards your ACA qualification. Start having those career conversations today. Before we finish up, I want to say thank you both for coming in today. So thanks Dale and Annabelle.
DP: Well, thank you. Welcome. Really enjoyed it.
AM: Yeah, thank you. It's been great fun.
OF: Make sure you visit ICAEW Student Insights for ongoing support during your studies. On the Student Insights hub, you'll find resources for completing the ACA qualification and ICAEW CFAB, as well as inspiring stories of students and recently qualified members. It's all available at icaew.com/studentinsights. If you found this podcast useful, then please make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode, and let us know what you think by writing a review on your podcast app. Thanks for joining us, and bye for now.