Host
Jag Dhaliwal
Guests
Claire Davis, Head of Performance, Growth and Excellence at Cooper Parry
Jack Smith, Early Careers Development Manager at RSM UK.
Transcript
00:10 Jag Dhaliwal: Hello and welcome to the ICAEW Student Insights podcast. My name is Jag Dhaliwal, and today we’re discussing how you can make a positive impression with your manager and firm. Whether you’re just starting your ACA journey or are about to qualify and enter membership, there are a whole host of things that you can do to show that you’re proactive about your professional development. Today, I’m going to speak to the experts to learn some top tips for early career success. I’m joined by Claire Davis, Head of Performance, Growth and Excellence at Cooper Parry, and Jack Smith, early careers development manager. Thank you both for coming in today. Great to be here. Pleasure. So you’ve got your training agreement. It’s day one. What can you do to set yourself up for success?
00:57 Jack Smith: It’s really easy, isn’t it, to get a bit nervous when you’re first joining somewhere, but nobody expects you to know everything. And so those little wins, the turning up on time, the knowing where to be if you’re out on a client site, knowing what to wear, it’s the easy things that can take you a long way in those early days.
01:15 Claire Davis: It’s so important to turn up on time and before you leave at the end of the day, just asking your colleagues if there’s anything else that you can help them with. So sometimes you might finish your work, but actually just, you know, one of our values is at Cooper Parry is ‘in it together’, and that’s so important. It’s not just the work you’ve done, but to ask other people if they need help.
01:36 JD: And so what else do managers want to see from their new joiners?
01:40 JS: I suppose the word would be proactive, and showing a bit of initiative. Like I say, nobody expects you to have the technical skills straight away, but asking those questions – why are we doing something? Not just how do I do it, but understanding why, I think that’s extremely important. Like you say, asking, is there anything else that I can do, and showing an interest in your team and the clients that you’re working on, it’ll take you a long way.
02:05 JD: And Claire, would you add anything to that?
02:07 CD: Yeah, I mean, and to build on Jack’s points, I think it’s really important to understand when you’ve been given a piece of work to do, some questions to ask is, what’s the purpose of doing this task? Sometimes it can seem really mundane, but actually, if people are asking you to do something, then there is a purpose. So asking why, I think is really helpful. Understanding how long it should take because we tend to charge our time to clients. So just being clear of, you know, how long’s something going to take, and if you’ve got any questions, who do you ask, and when to ask?
02:38 JD: And what about feedback?
02:39CD: Oh, feedback’s so important. I mean, we’re all learning, aren’t we Jack? So Jack and I were just talking there, and we’re both in training. And for me, it’s, that’s, that’s key. Just asking, what are you doing well? Find out what you’re doing well, so you know that’s good, it’s been appreciated. And then ask for advice on what you could do to be even better.
02:58 JD: And is it important to just make mistakes and try things out?
03:02 CD: Yeah. I mean, you we only learn by making mistakes. I mean, if I look back in my career, some of the – and the biggest – ‘oh nos’ are where I’ve learned the most, and I look back and I just think, okay, right next time player, don’t do that. But we all make mistakes, and I think we’ve all been there. So it’s never cover it up, you know, just admit you’ve made a mistake and learn from it. And think about, well, okay, what could I do differently next time?
03:26 JD: No, I completely agree. I some of my big ‘oh nos’ I can, as soon as you said that, one popped into my head, and I thought I have learned from that, though. So yeah, agreed. And Jack, what can trainees do outside of their job role?
03:41 JS: It’s a really important point that, actually, because we’re so busy at work, you’re going to be studying for exams, doing the day job, you need to have that downtime. And I think within a work setting, it’s getting involved in the social things that are going on. There might be five-a-side, football, netball – I know my particular office has a bit of that, book clubs, whatever it may be, or even just taking that chance on your lunch break to say, “Are we nipping out somewhere?” Are we going to wherever your canteen, or whatever it is that you’ve got, building that internal network. I mean, I can’t stand the word networking, but that’s ultimately what it is, isn’t it? Making friends, getting to know people and realising that people do have a lives outside of, I was going to say school, outside of work, it’s important.
04:24 JD: And how important, then, is it to just kind of be yourself in the workplace?
04:30 CD: Being yourself is absolutely critical. You know, we don’t want people just to be someone who they’re not. We want people to bring their full selves to work. We you know, we do an assessment where people do find out what their unique talents are. And it’s so important to people to go, Look, yeah, this is what I’m bringing. This is my life, lived experiences before Cooper Parry. But what what are the talents I’m bringing? And we really try and make sure people bring out the best of them.
04:56 JS: I always say to our brand new trainees when they come in, you know, the firm clearly believes that you’ve got the ability to get through your studies and to be a really good professional in whatever area that you’re in. But anybody with a certain level of experience or knowledge can do an audit, anybody can do a tax comp in that area. But what clients want, and what firms want, is somebody to do it with a bit of personality. And nobody’s saying you need to be, you know, the jester at work, nobody necessarily wants that, you’ve got to be professional. But do it as yourself, as your full self, and it’ll get you so much further, and also make the job a lot more enjoyable.
05:32 JD: And Jack, you’ve mentioned a few times about clients, and client side, I think for new joiners, that can be quite scary, just kind of imagining just going in straight away in front of the client. Do you have any tips for how they can do that well?
05:45 JS: Yeah. I mean, I think back to my first client. I remember it vividly. I was petrified. And part of it comes back to what we said before, because I didn’t understand why we were doing what I was doing. But in terms of tips, just dive in. It is, it is a bit deep end and it’s funny that often in this profession, the people with the least experience are the ones on the frontline. But it’s actually exciting, and it’s an opportunity. I used to love going into client offices and thinking, “What on earth do you do here?” And being able to say to them, “Oh, what’s that?” Because they’re so interested in what they’re doing, so if you show an interest – they don’t expect you to know everything, they know that you’re junior – but show that interest, turn up on time, as we said, before, turn up to the right site and agree on what you’re wearing, just to reiterate that point, but getting stuck in and making a good impression with your colleagues and the clients is the best approach.
06:40 JD: That’s great. And then a lot of what we’ve touched on so far is actually around the kind of whole training period. So what can trainees do once they’ve kind of got their feet stuck in and have, you know, mastered timing and showing up and dress code? What else can you then do?
06:57 CD: I think it’s just looking for opportunities as they arise. So we already mentioned, didn’t we, about, you know, the social committees, we have lots of D&I committees. Again, thinking about what you’re interested in, what your passion is. I think the accounting profession at the moment is probably most exciting time to ever be in with all the digital transformation. So, and that doesn’t, you know, we’re all learning ourselves with, as AI comes in, none of us have experience of that. So I think it’s like thinking about stepping up and saying, "Actually, I’d like to get involved in that." You know, we’ve got some big digital transformation projects. And what, you know, get involved. Say you want to get involved, be a champion and help roll it out.
07:38 JS: It’s, it’s the time to knuckle down, I suppose, and get get familiar with what you’re interested in. So you might be working on a specific sector that you’re not a big fan of, but then there’s other areas that you’ve been working in that you love. So certainly speaking up and asking, “Can I get more involved in that?” But from a, I suppose, from an ICAEW side, the specialised learning that’s that’s on offer is fantastic, lots of different modules covering a wide array of different topics, whether it’s sector-specific or Excel skills or communication, whatever it may be, if you’re interested in it, then spend the time diving deeper into it.
08:19 CD: Yeah. And I think it’s also being proactive by keeping all your records up to date. So making sure that you schedule meetings with your counsellor. You know, three years go, if that’s the minimum, it goes very quickly. And you don’t want, you know, you want, don’t want to be going back and doing three years’ records. So scheduling those six-monthly reviews, completing, you know, all the practical work experience, your audit qualification, if it’s applicable, and asking for feedback. You know, all the way through, just keep asking for feedback. What you’re doing well, what could I do differently?
08:49 JD: Yeah, some great tips. I think I would definitely agree with those. I think the training file, it’s so easy to just, I think sometimes people do forget it if they’re focusing on exams, other things. And yeah, it is, it’s key. So thank you. So Do either of you have any advice for trainees who are taking on maybe more complex clients?
09:10 CD: Ask questions. Going to keep coming back. There’s so much support. I think that’s what I love about professional services. You’re never on your own. So there’s always going to be a manager, there’s always going to be a partner, and there’s always going to be a senior, probably, that you’ll be working with. So make sure you ask loads and loads of questions so you know, you know, what’s complex about the client, what are the main issues that you need to address, and kind of get a good understanding of what work you’ve got to do. I’d encourage people to come into the office, you know, always go out on client site, because you learn so much just by sitting listening to how maybe a manager or a partner has a phone call with a client, or how they discuss complex issues. But just ask.
09:51 JS: I think sometimes people, people see big clients and think, oh, that must be difficult, that must be complex. But actually the point you just raised there, Claire, of what makes this complex, because you can have some much smaller clients who actually have some really interesting, complex things going on. So that is a really good question, and I echo your point about getting in the office as well. It can be frustrating at times, if people have got a long way to travel, but you just learn through osmosis. It’s quite impressive, actually.
10:18 JD: Yeah, you do. I’ve experienced that as well. And is any question a dumb question? Because when you start you really just don’t know.
10:28 JS: Not at all. I think people think, when, you know, you’re speaking to more senior people, and they say there’s no no questions are off the table. They think you’re just being nice, but they’re not. We’ve all been there where we’ve had zero knowledge. No question is a silly question. And actually, I can guarantee, if you’re in a team, you’ll not be the only person who’s thinking that question.
10:49 CD: And sometimes remember, the advantage of being a trainee is you’re brand new, you’ve got a fresh set of eyes. So it might be a question no one else has thought of, and actually could be a really valid question, which could change the course of that project that you’re working on. So yeah, if you’re thinking it, I’ve been there, and I’m sure we’ve all been in meetings, where you’ve thought of a question and you’ve not asked it, and then someone else has asked it, and you’re really frustrated because, well, I’ve been there, someone else has asked it. I’m not going to do that next time. So if it’s crossed your mind, I think going to Jack’s point, you know, we recruited you, you know, every firm recruited you, so we saw the potential, so you’re more than capable, and so we want to hear your ideas.
11:29 JD: And I love what you said as well there about, kind of, you do have a different perspective to everyone else, and you should just be yourself and think differently.
11:37 CD: Yeah. I mean, diversity of thought is so important. And I think that, you know, I think when you work for a firm, and I’ve worked at Cooper Parry now for 20 months, so still relatively new, but you suddenly become ingrained in that’s how things work around here. And actually, why should things work like that? And with the change we’re all seeing, we’ve got to kind of question what we do, how we do it, when we do it. So, yeah, no question is ever a dumb question. It’s probably the question we’ve none of us have thought to ask.
12:05 JD: So fast forward to qualifying as a chartered accountant. What happens next?
12.11 CD: Party!
12.13: JS: Yeah, I was gonna say, firstly a massive congratulations. It’s hard, and it’s hard for a reason. So you’ve, you’ve got there, you’ve passed it. And then I, particularly when I qualified, and speaking to the newly qualified people we have at RSM, they, sort of similar feeling of, okay, I’ve had my hand held almost since I was four. I’ve been at school. There’s been a nice pathway that I’ve been on, and now you’re out on your own. So it’s, it can be quite daunting, but there’s so many options available, often within within your own firm. So if you take somebody who necessarily could start in audit, nobody necessarily expects them to continue in audit. I’m sure audit would love it, but there’s tax, there’s deal services, there’s all the consulting work that can go on, and it’s vice versa. It works both ways, and that’s why it’s so important to start building that network from day one of fellow trainees. But like, like we’ve said all along, ask the question, if you think do you know what, I’m really interested in training, that’s how, exactly how I got into it. I said I really like the look of that, could I have a go? And the options open up. But you’ve got to make that, that step yourself. People will support you in that step, but you’ve got to take your own career by by the horns.
13:28 JD: And how open and honest can you be? Because if you do kind of want to move elsewhere within the firm or try something new, you might feel as though you can’t openly speak up about it. So what’s your view on that?
13:41 JS: I think again, it comes back down to earlier, to pre-qualification. If you’re sat there and you’re thinking, "This isn’t for me," in whatever area you’re in, and then you sort of just down tools, then it’s going to be harder to make that move. So I’d say keep working hard for as for as long as you can in the sort of pre-qualification phase, certainly make noises, though, and I think honesty is the best policy. I’ve asked for things at work, and the answer has been no, and I think they’ve appreciated my honesty and I’ve appreciated theirs, and that’s that’s the only way we can be, so yeah, being as honest and as open as you can is definitely the best policy.
14:21 CD: Yeah. I mean, I would encourage you to have that, yeah, have the conversations. Talk to people. Often, once you’ve qualified, you are so marketable, you’re going to get so many phone calls, you’re going to feel like, oh, wow, everybody wants me. I just encourage you to be really strategic about it, rather than opportunistic. Think about what you really like about your current role, what you dislike about it? As Jack said, speak to, speak to loads of people, find out what they do. I started my career in audit, and a career as an audit manager is so different to when you’re a trainee. So find out, what do they love about it. Speak to the people in all the different service lines. And I think the best thing about a lot of firms is a lot of firms have secondments. So I went on a secondment to the learning and development team where I was, and that’s when I realised that that’s where my passion lay. But if I hadn’t have liked it – a lot of my colleagues went, “Yeah, I enjoyed that for three months. But actually, no, I prefer being in audit or tax.” So you can almost try before you buy.
15:18 JD: And what about if you wanted to leave the firm?
15:22 CD: Absolutely, we recognise that loads of people leave the firms. That’s the nature we have. You know, most accountancy firms still have a pyramid. So we know that everybody who starts is not going to still be there, you know, you know, throughout their whole career. So therefore, we encourage people to, yeah, follow their passions. You know, if audit isn’t for them, or tax isn’t for them, then, you know, we often will say, "Well, go and speak to people." I’ve, you know, I’ve put people in contact that I know who’ve gone into different fields, go and speak to them about what it’s like, because they might be potential clients of the future, like refer us work in the future, and we have a lot of people who come back.
15:59 JS: It’s also down to you. If you you know, if you work hard, then more doors will open. If you put the effort in, more doors will open. But again, it’s not quite as try before you buy as a secondment is but like you say, people do come back and leave that door open, and if you’re having those good conversations, you might have wanted to move into one particular area that wasn’t open at the time. You go and move into industry, and then that that door suddenly becomes open. And if you’ve got those good connections and that good work ethic, then you might be able to walk through.
16:31 CD: I would reach out to people. So if you see people who are not in your firm, but maybe there’s somebody in a different firm, you see them on LinkedIn, I’d reach out to them and just say I’m really interested in what you do. Would you, you know, would you mind having a chat with me? I’ve had a few people who’ve done that to me, and I think it’s, it’s quite a privilege to someone to actually reach out to you. So I think very few people would actually say no. And again, it’s that proactive. Just have, you know, what’s the worst they can say is no, but if you reach out to enough people. So, yeah, just reach out to people.
17:03 JD: Yeah. LinkedIn, it’s a brilliant tool.
17.05 CD: Yeah.
17:07 JD: So we’ve shared a lot of great advice today. So thank you both. Before we do finish off, is there anything, one piece of advice that you would have to give? What would it be? Jack?
17:18 JS: I would say that it’s a, it feels like a slog when you’re going through it. It’s it’s a long three years, but they fly by. It’s quite bizarre. But along the way, there will be ups and downs, and one of the downs may well be that you fail an exam. It happens. I failed a couple, and I remember at the time thinking that it was the end of the world, and I had rent to pay, and I was gonna have to move home and all of this stuff, but actually, you’ve got the support there, and have your cry. I cried a lot, and I had my moans, and then I thought, right, what can I do to get through it? Figured out where I’d gone wrong, put a plan of action in place, and had the support of my firm, and again, I was communicating with them, and I’ll forever be very thankful for that support. So yes, it’s tough when you fail things, but it’s worth persevering.
18:07 JD: Oh, Jack, I’m really sorry you went through that!
18:11 JS: It happens though, it’s life.
18:14 CD: Yeah, I failed my fine… I failed a case study, it’s hard, isn’t it, especially if you’ve never failed anything in your life. It’s really hard. You just, you pick yourself up, and again, loads of other people have been there, so there’s lots, so much support, isn’t it? If you, if you fail, don’t worry, you’re in good company. And you will, you know, pick yourself up, and you’ll nail it second time or even third time.
18.36: JD: Yeah, you’ll get there.
18.37: CD: Yeah, you’ll get there, yeah, if you’re really and, which probably ties me on to, probably, my piece of advice is, be really clear on your goals. You know, if your goal is become, to become a chartered accountant or to become a chartered tax adviser, write it down. You know, research shows if you write down your goals, you’re so much more likely to achieve them. And actually, you know, another thing is to, you know, look at them each morning, you know, so what are you doing when you get up each morning? What are you doing to work towards your goals? And it just has to be a small thing, you know, just a small thing each day, but just keep your goals. Where do you want to be and keep working towards it? And you will get there, maybe a bit longer. But life is a long journey, so.
19:14 JD: I think this qualification is all about resilience.
19:19 CD: Yeah, resilience, yeah, and it’s and it’s so worth it when you get there.
19:23 JD: Lots of great advice there. So it’s clear that regardless of whether someone’s at the beginning of their ACA journey or they’re about to complete the qualification, there’s lots they can start doing today to pursue their career goals. Before we finish up, I want to say thank you to you both for coming in today. Thanks for your time Jack and Claire.
19:43 CD: Thanks for having us.
19:44 JS: It’s been great. Thank you.
19:23 JD: Make sure you visit ICAEW Student Insights for ongoing support during your studies. On the Student Insights hub you’ll find resources for completing the ACA qualification and ICAEW CFAB, as well as inspiring stories from students and recently qualified members. That’s all available at icaew.com/studentinsights. If you found this podcast useful, then make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode, and just let us know what you think by writing a review on your podcast app. Thanks for joining us today. Bye for now.